1058 The Irishman

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
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david hare
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#501 Post by david hare » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:02 pm

I have only seen the 1080p transfer via Beaver’s caps but it frankly looks like shit. While noting any discussion based solely on caps is perilous, I rewatched some of the film ( I don’t like it enough to watch the whole thing again) with a new DV enabled 75 inch screen. The Netflix stream is impeccable and is superior in contrast and dynamic range, and for that matter in color delineaion. In this case it’s not just the 2160 rez that kicks the Criterion encode out, it’s the dynamic range and color spacing. I dread to think how bad the 1080 Elephant Man shape up against the 4K Canal UHD disc (encoded by David Mackenzie.) But they are not playing a winning game here.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#502 Post by FrauBlucher » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:45 am


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tenia
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#503 Post by tenia » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:12 am

there are no encoding anomalies to report in our review
But clearly, the issues seen on Beaver caps are on the disc, since pretty much every single blu-ray.com capture is showing awful compression.

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david hare
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#504 Post by david hare » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:26 pm

This must surely be one of his ‘Criterion can do no wrong’ reviews as he never mentions the Elephant in the room. That is the separate existence of a completely superior format delivery.

Nasir007
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#505 Post by Nasir007 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm

I agree. You HAVE TO compare to the source. Blu Ray is not a thing by itself, it represents the film as it was premiered. So for most movies, you have commentary about the theatrical and how it looked and whether it is accurately produced here. Irishman was by and large a streaming release. It absolutely merits comparison to the streaming release to see how it compares and commentary with regards to it being a worthwhile purchase when most people have netflix.

bluesforyou
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#506 Post by bluesforyou » Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:09 pm

Here you go for a source comparison. My own screenshot of the 4K WEBRip. It has non of Criterion's blotchiness (and expectedly, more detail). On a proper UHD, the film would look even better. But right now the WEBRip is the definitive version of the film.

Once I get a hold of the disc, I will post a screenshot taken the same exact way and that would give a better idea of the real differences.

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tenia
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#507 Post by tenia » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:09 am

Nasir007 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm
Blu Ray is not a thing by itself, it represents the film as it was premiered.
Actually, it is, especially in regards to blockiness. Blockiness coming from the home video encode has a specific aspect that can be spotted on a BD (or even a UHD actually) and its related issues attributed to the correct reason (a sub-optimal encode). If the issue is not coming from the home video encode itself, it would mean it's baked in the professionnal intermediate result, ie for The Irishman its 4K DI. I have seen probably 1000+ BDs, and have only encountered ONCE a movie whose DI was showing blockiness to begin with (explaining why the subsequent BDs were also showing blockiness : An Elephant Sitting Still).

Remember also that Criterion didn't use a Netflix stream as a source and then adapt it to 1080p : they worked with an upstream less compressed file, most likely a 4K ProRes (I'd assume already converted SDR but sourced from the 4K DV DI), weighing several hundreds Gbs.
Nasir007 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm
You HAVE TO compare to the source.
How would you do that ? The Irishman 4K-finished source "weighs" several Terabytes and isn't available to the public. Even the largest least-compressed Netflix stream has compressed that by 99%. All we're achieving by comparing the largest 4K Netflix stream with the Criterion BD is comparing a 99% 4K compression with a different 99% 1080p compression. It's enough to see if there are exact common issues - which would mean there might be baked-in issues - but we're certainly not comparing to "the" source.

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MichaelB
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#508 Post by MichaelB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:48 am

I saw The Irishman in a cinema, and I think I’d have noticed if it was merely a projected Blu-ray - compression that’s invisible at home can often be glaringly apparent when blown up to fill an entire auditorium.

Nasir007
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#509 Post by Nasir007 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:18 am

tenia wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:09 am
Nasir007 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm
Blu Ray is not a thing by itself, it represents the film as it was premiered.
Actually, it is, especially in regards to blockiness. Blockiness coming from the home video encode has a specific aspect that can be spotted on a BD (or even a UHD actually) and its related issues attributed to the correct reason (a sub-optimal encode). If the issue is not coming from the home video encode itself, it would mean it's baked in the professionnal intermediate result, ie for The Irishman its 4K DI. I have seen probably 1000+ BDs, and have only encountered ONCE a movie whose DI was showing blockiness to begin with (explaining why the subsequent BDs were also showing blockiness : An Elephant Sitting Still).

Remember also that Criterion didn't use a Netflix stream as a source and then adapt it to 1080p : they worked with an upstream less compressed file, most likely a 4K ProRes (I'd assume already converted SDR but sourced from the 4K DV DI), weighing several hundreds Gbs.
Nasir007 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm
You HAVE TO compare to the source.
How would you do that ? The Irishman 4K-finished source "weighs" several Terabytes and isn't available to the public. Even the largest least-compressed Netflix stream has compressed that by 99%. All we're achieving by comparing the largest 4K Netflix stream with the Criterion BD is comparing a 99% 4K compression with a different 99% 1080p compression. It's enough to see if there are exact common issues - which would mean there might be baked-in issues - but we're certainly not comparing to "the" source.
I perhaps phrased what I was saying extremely poorly. I meant to say - were I a reviewer, I would compare video presentation to the prevailing format of mass public impression. Say I were reviewing a largely theatrical film, I would compare it to that. If I were reviewing a largely streaming film, I would compare it to that. So I was just supporting the notion that a direct comparison to the nextflix stream is vital as it exists and is readily available out there and it is the way most people would see the film. And beyond extras, streaming-debuted films on disc can place a burden on a potential buyer - if the buyer is only getting the disc for the video presentation and already has a streaming subscription. So whether the presentation on a disc is worthwhile compared to the stream is of interest.

All that is to say, if I were the reviewer, I would have compared it to the streaming copy.

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tenia
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#510 Post by tenia » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:29 am

Movies like The Irishman are actually exceptions allowing to do "easy" A/B comparisons with the other prevailing mass format. There is almost no way to do a real accurate comparison of the BD with its theatrical equivalent (except if accessing the DCP file), so it's all only what you see on BD versus your memories of what you saw theatrically... providing you see it in theaters to begin with (in my personal case, I have never seen once before the utmost majority of the movies whose BDs I'm reviewing, especially since most of them are older than I am), and that it was a technically relevant theater.

And then again, there are many "markers" on a BD release that allow to spot whether the basis are properly covered or if there are specific issues, without having to try and do a comparison with something else.

So to go back on the original matter here, which is the BD compression, the chances the blockiness of the Criterion BD isn't solely coming from the BD encode are pretty much 0. Sure, it's always best to have the matter fully investigated, but really, just like the recent discussion about whether the Universal master supplied to Eureka for Five Graves to Cairo is 4K somewhere or not, the simplest answer is 99.99999% to be the right one. And in the case of The Irishman, it's just the typical crap compression from Pixelogic again.

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TheKieslowskiHaze
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#511 Post by TheKieslowskiHaze » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:08 am

I had a great time rewatching this one last night, the first time watching it on blu-ray. Because I knew what to expect, I was less distracted by the admittedly not-great de-aging effects and thus appreciated the performances more. I found the overall experience quite devastating.

One thing I noticed that I missed the first time around:
SpoilerShow
The movie, for awhile, has a Dunkirk-like structure, with two alternating timelines (one decades-spanning, the other condensed to a few days) heading toward the same moment (Hoffa's killing).

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Sternhalma Weinstein
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#512 Post by Sternhalma Weinstein » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:56 pm

Pardon my fish if this has been discussed earlier, but I've a question that has bothered me every one of the half-dozen times I've watched this great film:
SpoilerShow
After Frank pops Jimmy (sorry, nerds -- SPOILER) and exits the house, I presume he returns to the car where Jimmy's son Chuckie awaits. What in hell is the logics here? Is Chuckie in on it? Is nothing said of Jimmy's absence? The only thing I can figure is they were gonna leave Jimmy at the meeting and come back for him; but that doesn't make sense either as Jimmy wanted Frank at the meeting too, and I can only assume Chuckie and Mr. Coke Bottles back in the car knew this too. Is Chuckie so dim that he wouldn't have the sense to ask where his old man is?

I know this scene (like much of the film) is conjecture, so it doesn't have to make perfect sense, but I cant figure it.

What am I missing?

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Never Cursed
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#513 Post by Never Cursed » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:01 pm

SpoilerShow
Sally Bugs (your Mr. Coke Bottles) is a made man, so he is presumably in on what is happening. My take on Chuckie was that he was trying to impress the mobsters in his own awkward and clumsy way (very much in line with the failson he is) and thus he would probably have not asked too much about what he knew was mob business even after Frank exited the house.

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domino harvey
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#514 Post by domino harvey » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:10 pm

Sternhalma Weinstein wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:56 pm
(sorry, nerds -- SPOILER)
Do not intentionally post a spoiler again

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Sternhalma Weinstein
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#515 Post by Sternhalma Weinstein » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:12 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:10 pm
Sternhalma Weinstein wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:56 pm
(sorry, nerds -- SPOILER)
Do not intentionally post a spoiler again
Are you actually serious? A two-year-old movie about a 75-year-old historical fact and we have to act like Blu-ray.com posters who celebrate their own half-birthdays and keep track of the number of "sleeps" left until the next episode of their favorite comic book movie?

How dispiriting. Over the last 25 years I've read every scrap of content by Kael, Agee, Farber, Rosenbaum (but not Guildenstern), Hoberman, Sarris, Macdonald, et al, and I don't recall any of them stooping to the manchild depths of intellectual abstinence popularized by the likes of Harry Knowles. Didn't realize this was that sort of place.

But, I'll abide. Wouldn't want anyone to enjoy Citizen Kane any less because of its absolutely least interesting aspect.

PS Sorry I mentioned the dead fish

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domino harvey
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#516 Post by domino harvey » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:16 pm

K

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#517 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:51 pm

We don't need two twotecs in this thread

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bearcuborg
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#518 Post by bearcuborg » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:56 pm

Sternhalma, if memory serves Frank says you could say Chuckie was in on it, but stupidly... I guess that’s part of the reason for the fish story?

But yeah, I’m not sure what the logic is either, other than he’s supposed to be dim? At least he knew enough to charge a guy who has a gun, when he has a knife you back away of course.

If I’m not mistaken the real life Chuckie is the only person depicted in the movie who’s still alive. He or a relative contributed to a newspaper regarding his depiction in the movie. He wasn’t pleased.

As for your spoiler, I think it’s the way you presented it.

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