1058 The Irishman

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
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david hare
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#501 Post by david hare » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:02 pm

I have only seen the 1080p transfer via Beaver’s caps but it frankly looks like shit. While noting any discussion based solely on caps is perilous, I rewatched some of the film ( I don’t like it enough to watch the whole thing again) with a new DV enabled 75 inch screen. The Netflix stream is impeccable and is superior in contrast and dynamic range, and for that matter in color delineaion. In this case it’s not just the 2160 rez that kicks the Criterion encode out, it’s the dynamic range and color spacing. I dread to think how bad the 1080 Elephant Man shape up against the 4K Canal UHD disc (encoded by David Mackenzie.) But they are not playing a winning game here.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#502 Post by FrauBlucher » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:45 am


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tenia
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#503 Post by tenia » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:12 am

there are no encoding anomalies to report in our review
But clearly, the issues seen on Beaver caps are on the disc, since pretty much every single blu-ray.com capture is showing awful compression.

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david hare
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#504 Post by david hare » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:26 pm

This must surely be one of his ‘Criterion can do no wrong’ reviews as he never mentions the Elephant in the room. That is the separate existence of a completely superior format delivery.

Nasir007
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#505 Post by Nasir007 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm

I agree. You HAVE TO compare to the source. Blu Ray is not a thing by itself, it represents the film as it was premiered. So for most movies, you have commentary about the theatrical and how it looked and whether it is accurately produced here. Irishman was by and large a streaming release. It absolutely merits comparison to the streaming release to see how it compares and commentary with regards to it being a worthwhile purchase when most people have netflix.

bluesforyou
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#506 Post by bluesforyou » Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:09 pm

Here you go for a source comparison. My own screenshot of the 4K WEBRip. It has non of Criterion's blotchiness (and expectedly, more detail). On a proper UHD, the film would look even better. But right now the WEBRip is the definitive version of the film.

Once I get a hold of the disc, I will post a screenshot taken the same exact way and that would give a better idea of the real differences.

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tenia
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#507 Post by tenia » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:09 am

Nasir007 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm
Blu Ray is not a thing by itself, it represents the film as it was premiered.
Actually, it is, especially in regards to blockiness. Blockiness coming from the home video encode has a specific aspect that can be spotted on a BD (or even a UHD actually) and its related issues attributed to the correct reason (a sub-optimal encode). If the issue is not coming from the home video encode itself, it would mean it's baked in the professionnal intermediate result, ie for The Irishman its 4K DI. I have seen probably 1000+ BDs, and have only encountered ONCE a movie whose DI was showing blockiness to begin with (explaining why the subsequent BDs were also showing blockiness : An Elephant Sitting Still).

Remember also that Criterion didn't use a Netflix stream as a source and then adapt it to 1080p : they worked with an upstream less compressed file, most likely a 4K ProRes (I'd assume already converted SDR but sourced from the 4K DV DI), weighing several hundreds Gbs.
Nasir007 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm
You HAVE TO compare to the source.
How would you do that ? The Irishman 4K-finished source "weighs" several Terabytes and isn't available to the public. Even the largest least-compressed Netflix stream has compressed that by 99%. All we're achieving by comparing the largest 4K Netflix stream with the Criterion BD is comparing a 99% 4K compression with a different 99% 1080p compression. It's enough to see if there are exact common issues - which would mean there might be baked-in issues - but we're certainly not comparing to "the" source.

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MichaelB
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#508 Post by MichaelB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:48 am

I saw The Irishman in a cinema, and I think I’d have noticed if it was merely a projected Blu-ray - compression that’s invisible at home can often be glaringly apparent when blown up to fill an entire auditorium.

Nasir007
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#509 Post by Nasir007 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:18 am

tenia wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:09 am
Nasir007 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm
Blu Ray is not a thing by itself, it represents the film as it was premiered.
Actually, it is, especially in regards to blockiness. Blockiness coming from the home video encode has a specific aspect that can be spotted on a BD (or even a UHD actually) and its related issues attributed to the correct reason (a sub-optimal encode). If the issue is not coming from the home video encode itself, it would mean it's baked in the professionnal intermediate result, ie for The Irishman its 4K DI. I have seen probably 1000+ BDs, and have only encountered ONCE a movie whose DI was showing blockiness to begin with (explaining why the subsequent BDs were also showing blockiness : An Elephant Sitting Still).

Remember also that Criterion didn't use a Netflix stream as a source and then adapt it to 1080p : they worked with an upstream less compressed file, most likely a 4K ProRes (I'd assume already converted SDR but sourced from the 4K DV DI), weighing several hundreds Gbs.
Nasir007 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm
You HAVE TO compare to the source.
How would you do that ? The Irishman 4K-finished source "weighs" several Terabytes and isn't available to the public. Even the largest least-compressed Netflix stream has compressed that by 99%. All we're achieving by comparing the largest 4K Netflix stream with the Criterion BD is comparing a 99% 4K compression with a different 99% 1080p compression. It's enough to see if there are exact common issues - which would mean there might be baked-in issues - but we're certainly not comparing to "the" source.
I perhaps phrased what I was saying extremely poorly. I meant to say - were I a reviewer, I would compare video presentation to the prevailing format of mass public impression. Say I were reviewing a largely theatrical film, I would compare it to that. If I were reviewing a largely streaming film, I would compare it to that. So I was just supporting the notion that a direct comparison to the nextflix stream is vital as it exists and is readily available out there and it is the way most people would see the film. And beyond extras, streaming-debuted films on disc can place a burden on a potential buyer - if the buyer is only getting the disc for the video presentation and already has a streaming subscription. So whether the presentation on a disc is worthwhile compared to the stream is of interest.

All that is to say, if I were the reviewer, I would have compared it to the streaming copy.

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tenia
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#510 Post by tenia » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:29 am

Movies like The Irishman are actually exceptions allowing to do "easy" A/B comparisons with the other prevailing mass format. There is almost no way to do a real accurate comparison of the BD with its theatrical equivalent (except if accessing the DCP file), so it's all only what you see on BD versus your memories of what you saw theatrically... providing you see it in theaters to begin with (in my personal case, I have never seen once before the utmost majority of the movies whose BDs I'm reviewing, especially since most of them are older than I am), and that it was a technically relevant theater.

And then again, there are many "markers" on a BD release that allow to spot whether the basis are properly covered or if there are specific issues, without having to try and do a comparison with something else.

So to go back on the original matter here, which is the BD compression, the chances the blockiness of the Criterion BD isn't solely coming from the BD encode are pretty much 0. Sure, it's always best to have the matter fully investigated, but really, just like the recent discussion about whether the Universal master supplied to Eureka for Five Graves to Cairo is 4K somewhere or not, the simplest answer is 99.99999% to be the right one. And in the case of The Irishman, it's just the typical crap compression from Pixelogic again.

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