BD 231 Criss Cross

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Rayon Vert
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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#26 Post by Rayon Vert » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:04 pm

I have the Elephant Films version but was quite willing to double-dip on the MoC, in part because of the extras, but looking at the beaver review, the Shout and MoC sreenshots have a really waxy look to them and I much prefer the grainier Elephant. Anyone have the same opinion looking at these?

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tenia
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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#27 Post by tenia » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:16 pm

The Elephant disc is clearly sourced from an older typically looking Universal HD master which has noticeable EE. I guess that's why Gary went crazy trying to compare those, especially his laughable attempt at comparing the Shout and the Eureka (the Eureka having a better encode but not necessarily a "more robust" one), because in comparison, the newer master look softer.
I think the new one has been slightly grain managed but is more filmic looking, while the older only look sharper but is rather sharpened.

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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#28 Post by Rayon Vert » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:35 pm

Thanks for your input tenia. The MoC hasn't been reviewed yet at blu-ray.com, but the review for the Shout version says this:
Appearing in its original exhibition ratio of around 1.37:1, Criss Cross looks very clean with excellent grayscale and inky blacks. This seems a most pleasing presentation but up until the scene at Union Depot in the middle of the film, the image is considerably de-grained. It appears a bit soft and doesn't have a thick texture that would make it look richly filmic. French label Elephant Films' Region B BD-25 has a lower encode and more scratches than Shout's (based on my research) but it retains the organic grain.
At this point I'm still inclined to stick with the Elephant.

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tenia
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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#29 Post by tenia » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:35 pm

Yes, that's what I talk about when saying some people are mixing up organic grain with thick and sharpened older masters with finer more recent ones that appear DNRed in comparison... While it's possible the newer restoration has been grain managed, the older disc doesnt show filmic organic grain at all.
(Nb : I reviewed the Elephant disc)

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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#30 Post by willoneill » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:07 pm

porquenegar wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:30 pm
Is anyone one else having a problem with viewing this on a region-free BD player? My player has never had a problem playing any of the 150+ MOC I own, but is having trouble with both Criss Cross and a Foreign Affair. It loads the disc, I hear the sound, I see the menu, I can navigate the menu with no issue, but when the movie itself starts playing, I get sound and no video. I pulled several other MOC Region 2 BD and they played with no issue. It seems odd that my player is only having problems with these most recent two discs.
I'm having the exact same issue with the Seven Chances disc of the Buster Keaton vol. 2 set (just that disc though, the other two are fine). I thought it was some weird glitch with my player because I couldn't find any indication online until tonight and your post.

I'll check Foreign Affair when it arrives.

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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#31 Post by Rayon Vert » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:54 pm

tenia wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:35 pm
Yes, that's what I talk about when saying some people are mixing up organic grain with thick and sharpened older masters with finer more recent ones that appear DNRed in comparison... While it's possible the newer restoration has been grain managed, the older disc doesnt show filmic organic grain at all.
(Nb : I reviewed the Elephant disc)
OK, that clears it up more for me, thanks.

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porquenegar
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BD 231 Criss Cross

#32 Post by porquenegar » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:06 pm

willoneill wrote:
porquenegar wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:30 pm
Is anyone one else having a problem with viewing this on a region-free BD player? My player has never had a problem playing any of the 150+ MOC I own, but is having trouble with both Criss Cross and a Foreign Affair. It loads the disc, I hear the sound, I see the menu, I can navigate the menu with no issue, but when the movie itself starts playing, I get sound and no video. I pulled several other MOC Region 2 BD and they played with no issue. It seems odd that my player is only having problems with these most recent two discs.
I'm having the exact same issue with the Seven Chances disc of the Buster Keaton vol. 2 set (just that disc though, the other two are fine). I thought it was some weird glitch with my player because I couldn't find any indication online until tonight and your post.

I'll check Foreign Affair when it arrives.
Hmm. I’m having this problem with my Oppo BDP-83 player but they both play fine on my Oppo BDP-103D player. I don’t have problems with any other of the MOC discs I’ve tried with either player.


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Florinaldo
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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#33 Post by Florinaldo » Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:00 pm

porquenegar wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:30 pm
Is anyone one else having a problem with viewing this on a region-free BD player? My player has never had a problem playing any of the 150+ MOC I own, but is having trouble with both Criss Cross and a Foreign Affair. It loads the disc, I hear the sound, I see the menu, I can navigate the menu with no issue, but when the movie itself starts playing, I get sound and no video. I pulled several other MOC Region 2 BD and they played with no issue. It seems odd that my player is only having problems with these most recent two discs.
My copy of Criss Cross came in this week (it took twice as long as usual, as if Canada Post is imposing a quarantine on UK shipments :wink: ). I tested it on my Oppo 83 and got the same results you report. I then tried it on my Oppo 93, which is usually dedicated to region A, and it played just fine. I even got the Universal color lead, which was blank but with audio on the 83. I tried the disc on an LG player and it worked fine as well.

I also tested other recent MoC titles on my 83 and encountered no problem.

I assume then that there is an issue of compatibility between this specific disc's encoding and the firmware of the Oppo 83 (I have the last version released by the company, which has now ceased production of the machines). The problem may not be limited to this Oppo model, but others would have to check that.

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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#34 Post by porquenegar » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:53 pm

That makes sense if we having the same problem with the same machine. Thanks for posting.

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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#35 Post by Rayon Vert » Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:09 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:50 pm
Why is Alda on the track? Does she do film criticism as well as act? Seems like an odd choice
I was going to ask this question just now as I'm starting the commentary. At least I'm not alone in wondering why. I'll see if I can piece together anything here as I'm listening.

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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#36 Post by Rayon Vert » Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:39 pm

Gregory wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:18 pm
I haven't had the pleasure of hearing a Gambin/Alda commentary, but if the two different reviews I read of Kino's Flame of New Orleans are even remotely on the mark, it sounds like I'd never want to:
Matt Hough wrote:Film historian Lee Gambin offers interesting observations on the film (though I didn’t appreciate the gay characters being referred to as “pansy” and “faggot” by Gambin) interrupted three times with separate comments by film historian Rutanya Alda. Both of them make occasional errors (Roland Young didn’t win the Oscar for Topper; Alda gets some of Mischa Auer’s filmography scrambled), and Alda speaks so breathlessly that her information tumbles out in all directions.
David Krauss wrote:Author and film historian Lee Gambin joins actress and film historian Rutanya Alda for a lively commentary that benefits from dual perspectives, even though the remarks were recorded separately. Gambin kicks off the discussion and performs the usual chores of providing background production information, cast and crew credits, and analyses of various themes. Alda shares some titillating trivia (whether James Stewart really impregnated Dietrich - resulting in a subsequent abortion - on the set of Destry Rides Again and whether Dietrich really slept with three members of the Kennedy family remain open to debate) as well as memories of her own personal connections to Dietrich. She also gushes over the film's costumes and praises its personnel. Alda is bubbly and breathless, and a nice contrast to the more subdued Gambin, whose professionalism complements her casual delivery.
Here Alda only pops up twice, once for a longish career rundown of Lancaster and De Carlo, and another near the end where she talks about Duryea - but I sped through that last bit so don't know if she elaborated on more. Gambin focused pretty much on the film itself, Alda not at all and her bit was mind-numbingly boring. I'm pretty sure listening to Adrian Martin next will be a more rewarding experience!

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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#37 Post by Rayon Vert » Thu Jul 06, 2023 10:21 am

therewillbeblus wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:05 pm
I also rewatched Criss Cross, but unlike many other films this decade, my thoughts haven’t changed a bit. I don’t have much to say about it, other than to declare that this still did next to nothing for me (outside of the well-paced scene with Lancaster in the hospital bed sizing up the man in the waiting room, completely helpless; and the brutal fatalistic ending that’s always chilling even if it doesn’t feel earned), though it did serve as a welcome reminder of how much I like Soderbergh’s remake, partly because it’s a solid film but also for choosing the perfect noir to refurbish: One with potential that didn’t quite hit the marks, and his eye for what could be improved upon has always been one of the many unique strengths for the eclectic auteur.
I think domino is also lukewarm about this film - OK, but not great type of thing (please correct me if I'm wrong, domino). On my first watch years ago I found it incredible, the second watch was probably hurt by expectatioins that were too high, now I've seen it again and I enjoyed it more a bit more again but I'm still wondering what gave me such a high the first time? Am I missing something?

And then Adrian Martin says at the start of commentary that he thinks it's Siodmak's "most perfect film, finest film, most cohesive, tightest and most expressive". And we know Eddie Muller's reverence for it. So who's right and who's wrong? :) Please help me make sense of this. (Unless Martin's comment on purely logical grounds can be reconciled with lukewarm appreciations by saying yes it's Siodmak's finest film, but even his finest film is only so-so - although I don't feel this is the spirit in which Martin says it's his finest film!)

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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#38 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Jul 06, 2023 10:56 am

I'm not sure, but just like Double Indemnity - which I'm also lukewarm on - it does wear a lot of quintessential noir qualities on its sleeves. Obviously something like Out of the Past is the quintessential noir, but it takes us on enough of a sprawling adventure through time and place and imbues confidence in character that may distract from the more in-your-face stuff that this one rubs your nose in. There's so much preordained anxious doom perpetuating this, from its narrative setup to specific set pieces, that it just screams 'textbook noir' every step of the way. I just don't find it particularly interesting

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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#39 Post by bottlesofsmoke » Thu Jul 06, 2023 2:02 pm

I agree that Criss Cross is sort of textbook noir, embodying a lot of the themes and the style of the genre, but without straying too far in interesting directions or getting too adventurous (it’s got more “flaws” as a film, but I enjoy more the wild swings that Phantom Lady takes, for comparison). What I think is interesting about the film is how Lancaster’s character almost seems aware that he is in a noir, talking about how fate is drawing him towards De Carlo, saying it was “in the cards” and “there was no way of stopping it” but he’s really just fooling himself, using a noir trope as an excuse for his own self-delusion, as he shows up at their old hangout, or for some reason going to the train station when she is coming back from her honeymoon, etc. and then acting surprised when they run into each other.

De Carlo’s character is probably the most interesting, complex character in the film, as the women often are in noir. She’s the smart, grounded one of the pair, Lancaster is the deluded romantic, telling her all he really cared about was having her, not the money. But she dismisses this and his belief that fate drew them together, telling him “you just don’t know what kind of world you live in.” She knows that, at least in a noir world, you can’t get by just on love (and she does love him, unlike Ava Gardner in The Killers, a movie that this parallels), you need money too, not to buy pretty things but to ensure survival. The ending speaks to this, as they are shot down, their ironic loving embrace doing nothing to protect them.

There are some great moments in the film and Siodmak is certainly a master of a certain style, but while I find these things interesting on an intellectual level and seeing where they fit in the period, like others it’s not a film a film I really love, like say Drive a Crooked Road, which shares a lot of similarities with Criss Cross but is a much better, more emotionally involving movie, in my opinion.

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Re: BD 231 Criss Cross

#40 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Jul 06, 2023 4:36 pm

bottlesofsmoke wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 2:02 pm
What I think is interesting about the film is how Lancaster’s character almost seems aware that he is in a noir, talking about how fate is drawing him towards De Carlo, saying it was “in the cards” and “there was no way of stopping it” but he’s really just fooling himself, using a noir trope as an excuse for his own self-delusion, as he shows up at their old hangout, or for some reason going to the train station when she is coming back from her honeymoon, etc. and then acting surprised when they run into each other.
Interesting read, though I feel like this is quite common in noirs (and melodramas, for the older/non-youth characters) of the period: Greatest Generation young-to-middle-age adults turning to fatalism as a defense because they do not possess the skills or basic constructs of a worldview to see peripherally beyond their circumstances. More specifically, they cannot properly define or engage with their labile emotional states, as this kind of intelligence was not taught or reinforced by their environments, and the postwar disillusionment and loss of identity opened up an awareness to a hole that could no longer be filled with the usual reliables.

In the noir - love, infatuation, greed, or any disruption of the rote mechanics of living that neatly-packaged (also a predetermined homogenous concept of "ideal") life they’re primed for, destroys one completely from ‘self’ (even if it’s unlocking other drives we have that are forbidden to consciously acknowledge) and causes this fatalistic self-diagnosis and delusion. Like people who survive a crisis, and cannot conceive of an answer for Why Me, they look to faith with stringent certainty- though here it's not in God, but in corporeal vices; a trusted tangible future of where their motivated behavioral impulses will lead them, with the 'higher self' now eroded. Lust, ambitiousness, and death are reliable, but even moreso, it makes sense that one would equate a deviation from the norm, and a surrender to these impulses, with death. If "life" is defined by the normative nuclear ideal, than without a social context that holds space for the 'gray area' in between, it would be logical to assume "death" is the response to choosing the abnormal, 'deviant' path.

I see most noir characters as ones who see themselves as actors in a noir movie - a kind of depersonalization as a way of coping with the derealization of postwar malaise. It's more comfortable to look for those concrete signifier-connotation relationships by identifying as an 'other' in black-and-white terms, rather than lean into the void of an emotional and existential vacuum. It's the characters who still hold onto their old 'selves' with a sense of confidence, like Mitchum's Jeff Bailey, that I find more interesting. Those characters wrestle with their identity and morality against the friction of lower incentives and limited reinforcements - they clearly have a confidence in self that a significant part of them is unwilling to give up, not even to feed a delusion to cope. They're fighters, but the noirs often elide how and when they're fighting themselves vs their corporeal surroundings vs the invisible tides turning in culture and morality beyond them. It would be offensive to explain the complexities of their inner psychologies, which is rarely even done with the voiceover narration outside of those defensive either/or ideas (and we know, and suspect they do too, that this is just grasping at straws for a rationale they can access - there's nothing more discouraging than not knowing what's happening inside of you, driving you, and yet feeling shaken with self-preserving sobriety in seeing the writing on the wall that whatever that 'thing' is is leading you to something dangerous, even fatal). And yet, it's crystal clear that this is happening, to us and the character. I dunno, I find that more interesting - the fusion of deliberately lucid and fundamentally enigmatic parts of a psyche - made by artists who had just woken up to this disillusionment and did not have answers either but were determined to stew in that muck and wriggle their way out, rather than the ones who pretend they're in a movie and shrug destiny into the pavlovian doom anxiously associated with where the blood is rushing to in their body

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