The Best French Film Made in the Past 30 Years?

[Michael Kerpan]

I thought The Story of Marie and Julien was amazing, and it blended the supernatural with "reality" in a similar, if less fun, way. I loved every second of both films.

I love this film also -- but I see this as more akin to "Duelle" than to "Celine and Julie".

To be quite honest, however,I've yet to find a Rivette film that I didn't think was wonderful. (Still left to see -- only the short version of "Out 1").

[Barmy]

I love Train. This thread is about the BEST French film since 1977. If Train is that film, I fear for humanity. Is it better than Bresson's Devil, for example? Nope.

[Michael]

First you laughed at Train love and now this:

I love Train.

Nice try, Barmy. No humanity in Train? If you could put more effort in understanding why those characters are "self-hating", maybe then you'd understand yourself better.

[Barmy]

Here's my blurb: "Train: What a Ride!"

I'm just saying it cannot be taken seriously as a "best" film. I don't object to films with f*cked up characters, but my preference is for something a little more inspiring.

[carax09]

You are not alone in your disbelief, Barmy. Train is being seriously over-valued on this forum! It was alright when DE was the only one placing it so highly---"greatest film ever made", but now other people are nearly as effluent in their praise, and I just don't understand it. Think about how great the resultant film would have been if someone like Almodovar had started with the same source material, and you should realize that an over-valued Train,means an under-valued 30 years of French cinema. Train lacks the visual inventiveness of the "Cinema du Look" (Besson/Beineix/Carax), while never quite reaching the narrative richness of a Pialat, Rohmer, or the last couple of Bressons.

My fondest memory of Train is actually something that David wrote in this thread (a few pages back) when he descibed the film as one that he's waited for all his life: "It's a living organism, with a pulse, a heart, a brain AND a d.j.". Keep it up, David. I may not always agree, but I do enjoy your writing...

[Michael]

Oh come on, carax. There's loads of love for Rohmer, Bresson, and Carax expressed everywhere on this forum. Maybe not enough love for Beineix though. You shouldn't fret too much because as you can see on this thread, there are only three people who love Train. That's an extreme minority. People learn about movies from others. Every movie David E loves doesn't "blow up my dress". For instance, Carax's Les Amants du Pont Neuf.

And no, I don't think Train is the greatest film ever made.

[Anonymous]

Oh my God, are there actually still people who believe that one can talk about "the best" or "the greatest" films? I thought those peculiar people compile the AFI lists, but on this forum? I'm shocked. Art is personal matter. You either share the sensibilities of an artist or you don't. Almodovar has been mentioned. I don't share his sensibilities at all, he feels utterly foreign to me, I have no connected with his work. Chéreau on the other hand is someone that I feel near to, like Fellini, Ophuls or Bresson. Therefore I personally respond to Chéreau's work, particularly to Those Who Love Me Can Take the Train, while others (such as barmy and carax09) do not, simply because they are different people. It's all a matter of personal preferences, tastes etc. I'm not interested in saying that any film is the best of this decade or of that decade (terms like "the best" are very naive anyway). I simply express what I feel, how I react to a work of art. Now if someone loves Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown a lot (and I don't like it at all) then I accept the opinion anyway. Barmy and carax09 seem to be incapable of doing that.

What I don't like in the way barmy and carax09 express themselves is that they sound so dictatorial. You make statements that sound like they were carved in stone. Do you immediately attack every single person who doesn't share your opinion? Come on guys, you can't be serious.

This thread is about the BEST French film since 1977. If Train is that film, I fear for humanity. Is it better than Bresson's Devil, for example? Nope.

Again, "better" turns up. I wonder what a film professor would say to you if you'd argue with him/her whether a film is "better" than another one. Mind your choice of words, barmy. What you express is personal preference, just like anybody else. There is no objectivity in the evaluation of art. It's all purely personal. Therefore, speaking of myself, I do prefer Those Who Love Me Can Take the Train to The Devil, Probably, although I also love the latter.

Also, Chéreau's film is "over-valued on this forum"? That must be a joke. There are only David, Michael and me who love it, among hundreds of users who never said a word about it.

And an "under-valued 30 years of French cinema"? Jeez! Like David, I have seen tons of films and I think I can evaluate French film history. There are countless, hundreds, of great films made in France since 1977 but for ME there is none that reaches the sublime heights of Those Who Love Me Can Take the Train.

And anyone who claims that there's no humanity in Those Who Love Me Can Take the Train must be either narrow-minded or short-sighted, or both. It's one of the most compassionate films ever made.

[carax09]

I don't feel dictatorial.

[Anonymous]

I don't feel dictatorial.

Your previous comments tell a whole different story.

[GringoTex]

There is no objectivity in the evaluation of art. It's all purely personal.

Obviously personal interpretation plays a role in any evaluation, but I would guess most of us in this forum also work from established (objective) sets of criteria in passing our judgments.

As for making lists of "bests", film canons are probably a necessary organizational framework for the study/discussion of film.

[Michael Kerpan]

Obviously personal interpretation plays a role in any evaluation, but I would guess most of us in this forum also work from established (objective) sets of criteria in passing our judgments.

Objectivity in the assessment of art is a chimera.

As for making lists of "bests", film canons are probably a necessary organizational framework for the study/discussion of film.

I disagree. Making lists of especially worthwhile films, historically influential films, etc. is quite possible without invocation of the concepts of "the best" and "the greatest".

[GringoTex]

Objectivity in the assessment of art is a chimera.

I'm not sure what the usefulness of this sentiment is. A Noel Burch, for example, established objective measures to create his history of film style. How do you respond to his theories except by tackling those objective measures?

I disagree. Making lists of especially worthwhile films, historically influential films, etc. is quite possible without invocation of the concepts of "the best" and "the greatest".

Seems a matter of semantics to me.

[Michael Kerpan]

> Objectivity in the assessment of art is a chimera.

Let me correct my statement. Objectivity in the assessment of the value of art is a chimera.

You obvious can assess all sort of stylistic parameters descriptively in a reasonably objective manner. It is only when one moves to placing a value on works that subjectivity becomes unavoidable.

If you can't see the difference between saying that something is worth watching/enjoying/studying and something is "the greatest", I'm sure I am not capable of explaining the difference to you.

[carax09]

Was I wrong to question the deservedness of Those Who Love Me Can Take The Train, in the context of this thread. When artfilmfan posted his initial thread-starter, I thought this was to be a kind of combination Lists Project/Defend-Your-Darlings. Was I wrong? Is it a Best French Film In The Last 30 Years (And Don't You Dare Question Me On It And Not Expect To Get Called Names) thread, and no one bothered to tell me.

Michael questioned the inclusion of The Lovers On The Bridge as deserving all the praise it was getting in this thread and nobody got up in his grill about it. Nor should they IMO. Why was my post any different? Hey Stan, take your meds and get back to me in the infighting thread if you really feel the need, but I don't think anyone is gaining anything by our exchange.

[Michael]

I brought up The Lovers on the Bridge because you made me to.

[GringoTex]

You obvious can assess all sort of stylistic parameters descriptively in a reasonably objective manner. It is only when one moves to placing a value on works that subjectivity becomes unavoidable.

I agree that subjectivity is unavoidable, but our value judgments are informed by an objective measuring(s) of a film. Stan's assertion that "You either share the sensibilities of an artist or you don't" is only part of the story.

[Anonymous]

Was I wrong to question the deservedness of Those Who Love Me Can Take The Train, in the context of this thread. When artfilmfan posted his initial thread-starter, I thought this was to be a kind of combination Lists Project/Defend-Your-Darlings. Was I wrong? Is it a Best French Film In The Last 30 Years (And Don't You Dare Question Me On It And Not Expect To Get Called Names) thread, and no one bothered to tell me.

Michael questioned the inclusion of The Lovers On The Bridge as deserving all the praise it was getting in this thread and nobody got up in his grill about it. Nor should they IMO. Why was my post any different? Hey Stan, take your meds and get back to me in the infighting thread if you really feel the need, but I don't think anyone is gaining anything by our exchange.

Oh please carax09, did you really read my post? From what I get from the passages quoted above, I don't think so. I never wanted to attack you and seem elitist (which the "don't you dare question me..." line is getting at) but I simply felt that you were sounding dictatorial, i.e. not accepting other people's tastes and preferences. You accuse me of calling you names, but excuse me, isn't it you who is obviously incapable of tolerating other people's tastes? Can't you simply accept the fact that David, Michael and myself love Chéreau's film and live with it? I simply wondered what your problem was.

And your last sentence is really out of place carax and confirms to me my assumption of how you treat people whose opinions may differ from yours. "Take your meds..." that's really great carax, very grown-up. You don't even respond to my comments and hide behind childish insults. I simply commented upon your unfair behaviour and you start to be insulting. Very nice. And it's actually you who should gain something by this exchange. But as you obviously haven't read my post there is no sense in continuing here.

You obvious can assess all sort of stylistic parameters descriptively in a reasonably objective manner. It is only when one moves to placing a value on works that subjectivity becomes unavoidable.

I agree that subjectivity is unavoidable, but our value judgments are informed by an objective measuring(s) of a film. Stan's assertion that "You either share the sensibilities of an artist or you don't" is only part of the story.

I don't think it's only part of the story because even though one can judge objectively whether a film is formally "well made", the overall evaluation of it is entirely subjective. Almodovar's films are all well made (objectively speaking) but I don't like them at all.

[yoshimori]

I know you've all been waiting to be told what the "best" French film of the past thirty years is, so here goes:

Desplechin, Esther Khan (2000)!

Now you know.

In the running were works by

Bresson: L'argent (1983) and Le diable probablement (1977)
Godard: Allemagne année 90 Neuf Zero (1991), Je vous salue, Marie (1984), and Hélas pour moi (1993)
Carax: Mauvais sang (1987) and Pola X (1999)
Denis: Beau travail (1999)
Desplechin: La sentinelle (1991), Leo jouee dans 'Dans la compagnie des hommes' (2003), and Rois et reine (2004)
Rivette: Jeanne la pucelle (1993)
Dumont: L'humanité (1999)
Resnais: Smoking / No Smoking (1993)

There you have it. Now shut up!!

[Seriously. One (the only?) purpose of such lists is to guide those who don't know all the movies/filmmakers on said lists to other they may like. So you like Beau travail and Mauvais sang? Maybe you should seek out some Desplechin. etc etc etc.]

[marty]

Let's see 1977-2007, I really can't go past Jacques Rivette with Celine and Julie Go Boating, La Belle Noiseuse and Story of Marie & Julien being sublime French masterpieces.

[Barmy]

yoshimori's list is the best yet (although there's some dross in it), except by my count it has more than one film

[carax09]

I brought up The Lovers on the Bridge because you made me to.

Michael, I don't think I made you bring up The Lovers on the Bridge because I've never even brought it up on this forum (except as an allusion in my username). The reason I haven't written about it is because the reasons I love it and connect with it so strongly are of a personal nature. Have you ever felt like a film was created for you personally---like writer/producer/director were in league together---a secret cabal organized to do nothing more than blow your mind. That's the way it felt when I first saw that film...and that's the way I still feel about it.

So, you see, I actually feel more comfortable discussing something like Pialat's Van Gogh, than Lovers..., because it seems more universal in appeal, more art with a capital "A".

By the way, the last time I had a strong personal connection with a film was The Science Of Sleep, so kudos to your avatar.

....

Sorry, Stan.

[seferad]

Claude Lanzmann's Shoah
Maurice Pialat's Van Gogh
Olivier Assayas' Irma Vep

These films I feel all really brought something unique to cinema. I know Shoah stands apart from the others as more as a testament than anything else, but it has such a powerful effect. It can be related back to Resnais and Marker in it's exploration connecting to the past through memory, and the memories and words of the individuals involved really seared themselves into mine.

[foggy eyes]

Dumont: L'humanité (1999)

At risk of alienating an embarrassment of riches, this would get my vote too.

[portnoy]

Because he deserves mention among the greatest French filmmakers of the past 30 years (despite being an American expat (which he will deny to the grave)), I'll throw my vote to Eugene Green's LE PONT DES ARTS (2004), which is a movie I unequivocally love.

[Barmy]

What's with the VEPlove . Assayas himself has made about 5 films better than Vep. In fact, demonlover deserves consideration for this award.

Anyway, after careful consideration, the Best French Film of 1977-2007 is Les Amants du Pont-Neuf.

There are precisely 2 runners up, namely Pola X and Le Diable probablement. Beau Travail wins for best closing credits sequence, but otherwise is (slightly) overrated.

The best French director of this period is Jacques Rivette, even though most of his best films (including Celine) are not from this period.