Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

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DarkImbecile
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Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#1 Post by DarkImbecile » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:28 pm


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mfunk9786
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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 202?)

#2 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:00 pm

Further discussion of NEON moved here

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 202?)

#3 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:19 am

Very curious to see what Ducournau chooses to do next. Out of all the recent ‘arthouse horror revival’ films, Raw was by far my favorite, and while I would be interested in seeing her stretch her ambitions to new territory part of me hopes she continues to incorporate some element of body horror in her next film. For a subgenre that externalizes the principles of psychoanalysis into physical form, a perspective that’s both the root of psychology and film theory while also being patriarchal in both manifestation and modern practice, a feminist lens was much appreciated in her last film. I’m at a loss as I attempt to consider the avenues by which she could possibly take these old concepts to original places.. but that doesn’t mean they’re not there.

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 202?)

#4 Post by Black Hat » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:07 am

Yeah I thought Raw was pretty great and found Ducournau to have a quite formidable presence so I'm definitely in for this.

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 202?)

#5 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:36 am

Will be released in the U.S. on 10/1

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#6 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:10 am

This is a film that nobody should know anything about going in, so (outside of a whopping spoiler-box) I will just declare that it's a singular, unique work that reveals unexpected emotional depths through a psychologically mature methodology of narrative craft, without ever spelling out the lining of its themes as most 'body horror' films might. Ducournau's Raw was remarkable for making tangible the nebulous experience of female psychosocial development, but her latest work transcends these palpable signifiers of 'body horror' to become something else entirely, basking in the murky grey area of emotion, which effectively greets these impossibly-escapable mental states where they're at. This may frustrate some audiences, but I don't know if I've ever witnessed a film so appropriately meet the struggle to achieve catharsis on its level with tone and content.
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First, this is such an uncomfortable film to sit through- not as much because the content is gruesome or unpleasant- which it is at times- but because Ducournau imbues every single aspect of a scene, from performance to mise en scene to pacing within a shot, with anxious distress. However, how she can do this without going full-tilt into a depressive mood is unbelievable- somehow Ducournau sculpts a film that becomes unconditionally empathetic to this assertive dysphoria.

At first we're treated to a mysterious anti-character study about a serial killer without clear motive, and certainly without our investment in it. The filmmaker is so self-assured that she seamlessly keeps us involved via the allure of mystery (as well as some expertly-conceived absurdist horror-comedy setpieces, the highlight being an unpredictable quadruple murder!) before pivoting into a second act of manipulation that gradually, yet suddenly, transforms into an intimately sensitive examination of two people finding the opportunity for real, corporeal affection for the first times in their respective lives (or in the case of Vincent Lindon, his post-acute grief life, which we can tell has been a vacuumed eternity on its own). The empathy comes seeping in as Ducournau's tonal unease meditates on the immense loss and irreparable damage each has suffered. Even if they've 'found' each other, and can connect on some level of depth, each is so broken they cannot evade their trauma.

And that's what this film is ultimately about, trauma, or more specifically the reality that people do not 'experience' trauma but live with trauma. We mistakenly wonder if Rousselle is killing out of a conditioned drive from her accident, titanium in her skull prompting murder (after all, cars are aggressive killing machines), but whether this is true or not, it's a red herring for the lack of healthy attachment in early childhood development that destroys lives and produces problematic antisocial behavior. Reactive Attachment Disorder is a very complicated and ruthless condition that is relatively new to being treated, and we know little about how to help. I don't need to get into my field too deep, but having worked with kids who live with this condition for the last 12+ years, I can safely say it's one of the most tragic, baffling, and powerful holds, and one of the few that can feel truly helpless and tiring to treat at times. So whether Rousselle is coping through acting out with sharp violent tools or having sex with inanimate objects, she's hiding from herself; similar symptoms to Lindon coping through drugs and self-destructively seeking out fire- a symbol for the chaotic powerlessness over mental and emotional disorder that permeates his/their worldview- both at work and at home. The loss is too great, and both characters had fatalistically resigned themselves to look to objects rather than other human beings for connection in their respective existential participation. At least until they meet and shed defenses to create an imperfect, messy, but potent relationship.

Dance may be one of the only forms of superficially useful expression in this film, one that Ducournau has used before, but it doesn't lead to any kind of finite release either. I (of course) loved how the actual objectivity of both lead's identities (he is not her real father, and she is not his real son) did not matter one lick to either of them; the subjective need to fit into a role, love and be loved, is everything. Yet Ducournau isn't cheap or disingenuously optimistic and carefully demonstrates how this is not 'enough' for them either. Nothing can undo their losses or trauma, but the willingness for this filmmaker to courageously sit and stare that state of being directly in the face, and intervene with infinite compassion, carries enough meaning for the characters, and for the audience. The tone never lets up; even when we realize what's going on and shift our own schematic diagnostics to something beautiful, it cannot escape a mood of eternal pathos. It's a pathos we can share though. The relentless aches the film's energy transmits into our stomachs match the characters' pain. This film is like being hypnotized into a VR experience of a trauma survivor finding their answer, and engaging with that answer to discover that it is both not sufficient as a cure and accepted as a gift at once. The film is a gift itself. One of the most respectful and cultured explorations of injured hearts, minds, and souls that I've ever seen; the answer for how a tragedy can be reframed into compromised grace, but grace nonetheless, is our capacity for interpersonal warmth.

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#7 Post by Finch » Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:01 pm

I didn't care for the first half at all but found the film quite resonant and moving once Lindon shows up.

Slant interviews Ducournau

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#8 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:08 pm

Finch wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:01 pm
I didn't care for the first half at all but found the film quite resonant and moving once Lindon shows up.
Well, that's the whole trick! It wouldn't have been resonant without gradually revealing that we've been looking in the wrong place and with the wrong tool to solve a psychological mystery, with our heads rather than our hearts

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#9 Post by Finch » Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:11 pm

I'm open to warming up to the first half over time. I did like the black humour in one prolonged murder sequence and the transformation scene in the disabled toilet is suitably stomach turning. I also appreciated how Alexia's late film dance not only mirrored the earlier scene in the film but also how it had to give Lindon's character an inkling as to what was going on.

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#10 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:04 pm

Finch wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:11 pm
I also appreciated how Alexia's late film dance not only mirrored the earlier scene in the film but also how it had to give Lindon's character an inkling as to what was going on.
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At that point, Lindon had already seen Alexia's breasts and admitted he knew she was not his son and didn't care. I don't think the scene was disturbing to him because it challenged his conception of reality, but rather that this moment of Alexia actually expressing herself publicly cemented the earlier point I made that any 'catharsis' from forcing our subjective realities onto others, or even forging bizarre authentic intimacy based on mutual need, is not enough- and shatters the fantasy that it, or anything, will be. Both characters repeatedly experience revelations of this truth, that their pain is not extinguishable (a reach, but fire metaphor?), yet continue to come back together to try in a compromised form either way. It's a great depiction of how we are fatalistically lonely and magnetized to introversion by trauma (specifically induced by loss from social deprivation) regardless of having that 'person', but that these connections are still meaningful, despite the myth we tell ourselves that it'll be okay in absolute terms if we just have x. The final shot, following Alexia's death with Lindon holding this new alien child, is a perfect example of a confused acceptance of this existential compromise.

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#11 Post by pianocrash » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:45 pm

The split of this film in half beyond the initial horror and the eventual climax didn't feel as cathartic as much as it did a relief, the same reaction I had previously to Raw, which similarly had a slew of interesting starting points with less conclusion to show for all of the previous chaos. I'm not saying I didn't enjoy all of the bombast in either film, but left to stew in my brain for a few days, Titane didn't leave a lasting impression as if it had been two separate films entirely. Had there been any sort of significant character development on the Agathe Rousselle's side (Vincent Lindon is exquisite, on the other hand), apart from
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her thin metamorphosis by way of post-homicidal survival, it might have been easier to care about her final outcome, let alone that of the film as a whole. And with that, it almost feels silly to accept the final images of Lindon, save that he is the one character truly in need of catharsis, as the singular blessing in a sea of stomach turning events, but at least we earned it, right?

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#12 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:52 pm

The point is that there is no catharsis, and that likability via aligned character development isn't the only criteria for empathy. That's why the turn is so beautifully sneaky and unique. I can appreciate why this film won't work for many people, but anyone expecting to be given clear holds to identify with the lead or find catharsis is working against the film's own themes and narrative strategy.

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#13 Post by brundlefly » Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:31 pm

Loved a lot of this and agree it’s a movie best initially kept in a spoiler-box. Though as thankful as I am the trailer did as much – that Zombies song is surgical – I’m also thankful for Spike Lee’s ecstatic summary of one of its elements (link - spoiler!) because you can’t casually recommend this thing to people. You need to let them know it’s got audacity in its fuel line.
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Or maybe audacity’s the ignition and acceptance the fuel, gearheads come make your metaphors. As much as it is a film with two halves, it’s almost a shame to let people know that? That there’s any kind of relief in sight during a first half where all forms of contact are so hilariously unpleasant that you must keep it all at arm’s length?

But I also think you need both halves to be the way they are, they depend on each other the same way Alexia and Vincent do. Pragmatically, the first half is rage and outrage, it is unsustainable, and it is ridiculous: Alexia is so terrible a serial killer she shouldn’t even make it to the second half of the film, and also hey she’s been impregnated by a car. Forces practical asterisks you have with the second half of the film away. Stop worrying about how much work those bandages are doing; just feel them cutting into the skin, the pain going into Alexia’s effort to conceal herself.

I love what Ducournau chooses to show and how much she doesn’t care about explaining most of it away. Honestly, I came from the first scene wondering if Alexia was meant to be some sort of bad seed psychopath – and sympathized with her father. (I do not have or want children, you’re welcome.) Of course the constant unspoken antagonism between Alexia and her father establishes the hurdle and relief with Vincent, but totally appreciate twbb’s note on attachment in early childhood development. Those two quick scenes with her father – that stomach examination feels grueling intrusion, as far from loving touch as possible – are so efficient. Ducournau’s films are monster movies, prototypical doctor daddy Victor Frankenstein was always the real monster.

But that first scene! (Will Ducournau open every film with a car accident? And do that Bergman thing where she’s going to use the same character names over and over?) Initially Alexia seems like she’s only humming in competition with the radio for attention… but she’s also singing along with the car. And when her father turns to yell at her, the car ends his argument for her. No wonder she loves that breed of machine.

I think as long as people have spoken of “body horror” and cinema there’s been a singular touchstone, and I love how far Ducournau’s work is from Cronenberg’s. (Even if you could riff on Titane as a cross between Crash and M. Butterfly.) James Woods lightly aggravates the patch on his stomach that’s going to turn into a vagina, while the female leads of Raw and Titane dig their nails into their rashes until they bleed. His errs fantastic and theoretical, goopily sci-fi; she makes hers more brutally physical, uncomfortable, intrusive, practical. More from what could be considered a female perspective, perhaps, more empathetic to those who’ve been poked and prodded and acted upon than those who poke and prod.

It’s strange gender hasn’t come up here yet, because there’s so much at play even without society’s evolving standards. Certainly the history of films where women pass as men is fantastically antagonized here by forcing a fully pregnant protagonist into the role. But there’s something great about Alexia’s transformation toward in-betweenness, a part-metal pregnant person who looks to re-make herself in the image of a computer’s vision of a missing boy.

Gender figures into the dance scenes as well. Unsure what twbb meant by “superficially useful expression” – perhaps that dance has to be cathartic? But as a sense of expression, I don’t think it’s superficial, it’s useful and instructive. Alexia is a dancer, clearly a worshipped one, and she uses her dance both to connect with her car-lover and to set herself above and away from the contact of her audience. This is why her late dance – was it on top of one of the company’s trucks? – is important. She’s not just using it to express herself. Dance is used in simple ways to show Vincent spinning lonely and to show Vincent and Alexia making connection; it’s used to show boisterous masculine mosh cabal. And she rises out of that to distinguish and disconnect herself from the others. She is something different from them, she is singular.
Last edited by brundlefly on Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#14 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:54 pm

brundlefly, that is such a rich and insightful writeup. I want to single out many parts, but especially how you also seem to see the self-reflexive structure and tone reflecting the themes (i.e. the way the two halves "depend" on one another, in several respects!)

Also to clarify my point,
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dance is certainly "useful" in-the-moment to the person engaging in it, and an important tool in communicating one's warmth to another, but it seems to be initiated -with an craved, and perhaps subconscious expectation- as a gateway to something greater and deeper and finite between others, that to some extent depends on the other subject being danced to receiving that expression to give it worth (the father's Zombies dance trying to forge a union with disinhibition going awry, the firetruck dance alienating the crowd, which doesn't matter to Alexia, but it does appear to cause her insecure pause when it alienates her substitute father, his reaction halting the expressive gesture and deflating her confidence in its value). In general, I tend to use "superficial" liberally, less as a derogatory term and more as an indicator of that which exists on the surface but does not succeed at reaching the depth/affinity/self-actualization the action strives for- in this instance due to the limitations of the social environment, the projected partner's own trauma history, and the natural disconnect between people when a psyche's defense mechanisms remind that person of their individualistic obstacles and the deterministic impenetrability of another soul.

Dance absolutely works as self-expression on an insular level, such as Alexia's dance to open her adult transformation at the start of the film, but it's still part of a job, an isolating routine without much substance, and without a purpose (or motivation) of connecting to others there. The later respective dances are definitely instructive- without them, neither "half" would extend an olive branch to the other and their relationship would not develop at all, so it's undoubtedly an intervention each uses to pierce through to the other by taking risks to emerge from their shells. That juxtaposition to the initial dance reflects growth on its own, and is an optimistic reframe for how we can repurpose our segregative behaviors to invite and include the energy around us instead of closing ourselves off to it.

However, the constraints of the intimacy each party is trying to overcome via their dances are fixed to some extent. There's a fatalistic friction occurring that neither person wants to acknowledge, and I find it beautifully ironic yet apt in conveying how often our corporeal attempts at cultivating absolute intimacy fall short, and how sad that can be for us to become sober to our ingrained handicaps from achieving our desires with tangible action. The depiction of this struggle for both Alexia and Vincent is relatable though, for me at least, and when they each notice the struggle in the other, especially in the very end when there's a mess of being confusingly magnetized and repelled from each other before a crisis forces that messy intimacy, that recognition of a common impediment to proceed smoothly and confidently is actually what blends them together- more than any "superficial"-by-comparison unidirectional form of expression ever did.
"Superficial" may not have been the clearest, or most correct term to use, but hopefully that helps explain my thoughts

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#15 Post by Never Cursed » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:29 am

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So I loved this, both on first watch with a receptive audience and in the theatrical showing I saw where literally every other viewer bailed before Vincent Lindon showed up, but I have to admit that I think the traumatic aspects of the two leads' shared identities are secondary to the dissection of gender performance that forms what is for me the movie's central Cronenbergian point of analysis. Both our main characters literally live with a trauma they can never tidily resolve (Lindon with his son's empty bedroom, Rousselle with the chrome-colored reminder of her car accident), but the sadness of their existence comes more from the way that they express their grief, in public and secretly, through their performed identities. Alexia artificially makes herself into an oversexed alt-femme honeytrap as a way of simultaneously hiding her symptomatic desire to do harm and enabling her presence in situations where she can get the drop on others - she hides her stereotypically masculine features with a femme face. Vincent does the opposite, using his aging yet domineering macho persona as a way to bottle up his need to be a parent - a stereotypically feminine desire (turned on its head through the late arrival of the apathetic mother character) obscured with a masculine face. (It isn't an accident that both of their secret activities involve the use of a phallic object in the opposite way considered typical of their gender - Alexia penetrates others with her hairpin, while Vincent is penetrated with his own steroid needle.) When Alexia goes on the run, it isn't her abandonment of her parents and her life that really challenges her (she kills them and destroys her house without expressing any emotion at all), but rather the need to repress her female face, to perform a male identity (doing things to herself that uncomfortably appropriate the processes that trans men use to "pass" in their own gender expression). It's only when these two people connect that they learn how to be fluid and comfortable in their own skin, how to have their needs fulfilled without engaging in self destruction or just plain old destruction. (Even then, they run into reminders that others are able to exist in this way with a lot less effort, as demonstrated by the episode where "Adrien" tries to hide her crossdressing and Vincent just laughs and show her the picture of the real Adrien wearing a dress - don't worry, he conveys, this fluidity is a thing that people who aren't broken are able to have). It's this process that leads the two into the resolutions of their raging internal conflicts, first where Alexia breaks with her performance of masculinity itself in the firetruck dance, and then in the birth scene, where Vincent finally gets a child he can call his.

To be clear, I'm not saying that any of these relations between damage and gender expression are absolute or even generally correlative, either in the real world or in the film (as plenty of side characters perform masculinity and femininity without the implication that they are unhappy doing so), just that the two are connected for the two leads and their understandings of their own selves.

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#16 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:34 am

Great thoughts, as always!

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#17 Post by Luke M » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:26 pm

The fiancee and I are going to the theater tomorrow night. This will only be our third theater experience since the pandemic began but it's my birthday so we're gonna try. We trying to decide what to see and it's come down to seeing this or the new James Bond flick. What's your pick? Granted the one that doesn't get picked will probably have to wait for blu-ray or streaming. Neon has been pretty good about putting stuff out digitally and Bond will likely get a reference quality blu-ray. So, here's the dilemma. If you saw both of them and could've only saw one?

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#18 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:32 pm

Luke M wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:26 pm
The fiancee and I are going to the theater tomorrow night. This will only be our third theater experience since the pandemic began but it's my birthday so we're gonna try. We trying to decide what to see and it's come down to seeing this or the new James Bond flick. What's your pick? Granted the one that doesn't get picked will probably have to wait for blu-ray or streaming. Neon has been pretty good about putting stuff out digitally and Bond will likely get a reference quality blu-ray. So, here's the dilemma. If you saw both of them and could've only saw one?
Uh, that entirely depends on your fiancée's ability to stomach some perversely graphic content. I liked Titane more, but a good chunk of the theatre didn't walk out of Bond by the 30-minute mark...

Both movies are kinda about the need for love though, which might sound like a good date night movie but it's not really in either case. That's as far as that venn diagram goes in comparing the two

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#19 Post by Never Cursed » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:03 am

Luke M wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:26 pm
If you saw both of them and could've only saw one?
Titane is the better film, but the Bond is also good and less ennervating through graphic content. I'd say the Bond is the better choice unless you're both actively looking for something a bit more extreme or the longer runtime of the Bond is an issue

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#20 Post by brundlefly » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:29 am

As someone who took a girl to see Dead Ringers on a first date(*), this isn't a choice I'd trust me to make. I suspect any bond formed over Titane -- whether you love it or are thoroughly repulsed by it -- would be the stronger one. And the theater's guaranteed to be emptier, if you have any lingering COVID concerns.

But you're already engaged and NEON's films all wind up on Hulu and the Bond film has to be the safer bet.






(*) In my defense, I did not know it was a date at the time, just an outing with a friend. But also: She had wanted to see Twins.

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#21 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:41 am

I mean, it all comes down to what you're in the mood to see. You could hardly find two more different films to choose between: an art-house body horror meditating on loss and gender identity, or a bloated formulaic action blockbuster -complete with corny one-liners and villains- albeit a strong one with a heart.

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#22 Post by Luke M » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:41 am

Hmm, well we're not really squirmish but the comments here imply a level of graphic content I was not anticipating. And it sounds like the Bond movie isn't bad which is great. I think we're going to play conservatively and go with No Time to Die. Really appreciate the replies.

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#23 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:55 am

That’s probably the right call, but it’s worth clarifying that Titane isn’t as visually graphic as it is uncomfortable for how certain scenes are paced without cutting to relieve the audience of discomfort. It’s often unsettling because of graphic content of what’s implied, rather than directly shown for shock value, if that makes sense- but that still caused most of us (who aren’t particularly squirmish either) to squirm. Having said that, my whole group loved the film despite some tussling around in our chairs

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Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#24 Post by Brian C » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:26 pm

It’s pretty graphic though! It’s not FUNNY GAMES.

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Re: Titane (Julia Ducournau, 2021)

#25 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:07 pm

Very true, I just didn't want to imply that the film's discomfort sways towards an optical level of extreme violence. Not that it matters much to all audiences, but some people are more sensitive to blood/guts than others, and this kind of "graphic" content isn't overly extreme in that department, compared to a Tarantino movie, for example, but is certainly more graphic in its implicitness, forcing the audience to sit in a scene without cutting away from what's being endured (the most stirring of which, for me, occur outside of direct visualization of the action)

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