UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading

[nicolas]

A tiny quibble - it’s Flying Padre, not Flying Parade.

You’re right, thanks for pointing this out! I’ll correct this asap.

[Yakushima]

LE CHAT QUI FUME's 4K UHD of Rene Laloux' Gandahar is an absolute stunner. It is not English-friendly though.

[nicolas]

KL’s North Dallas Forty UHD looks very good. I’m honestly shocked how stable the compression is (apart from highlights as usual) in Dolby Vision. HDR10 not so much. The master itself looks excellent as well without the Paramount tinkering. Colors are remarkable and beautifully saturated. The UHD deserves to be in the good in DV category.

This just in case someone needs the subtitles on when watching the KL UHD of Thunderbolt & Lightfoot: I’ve seen the film today and noticed they all appeared a good 3/4-second too late. I’ve left them on for the rest of the film after briefly needing them halfway in and they remained out of sync until the end.

[tenia]

Comparison of 2012 BD (edited cut only) vs. 2024 BD vs. UHD: https://slow.pics/c/T45h4TJc
Two BD / UHD caps of the Premiere cut that didn’t fit into the comparison: https://slow.pics/c/scJjjglq
BDInfo code and graphs of all cuts and all the discs: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=44

The Seafarers 2012 BD vs. 2024 BD vs. UHD: https://slow.pics/c/AQhszlGn
Day of the Fight 2024 BD vs. UHD: https://slow.pics/c/lpojSvb5
Flying Padre 2024 BD vs. UHD: https://slow.pics/c/LeAVI6xv
BDInfo code and graph of all the short films: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...0&postcount=45

Wow some of these are laughable at best (if it wasn't so sad).

[nicolas]

Great to hear your confirmation. It seems we finally have something to hold on to when it comes to La Haine after disappointing Studiocanal (FR) and Plaion releases (and from Criterion of all labels). The only possible improvement after this may be a potential BFI / FiM disc although it appears to me that this is far from guaranteed to happen as we already have the second English-friendly 4K versions of the film and BFI tend to be very selective about their upgrades.

Was there something particular about the Studiocanal release of La haine that makes you say it was disappointing? The only mentions of it in this thread suggest that it is a solid upgrade over the most recent Blu-ray. I have the SC 4k but haven't gotten around to watching it yet, and am trying to decide whether it is worth getting the Criterion instead.

I don’t have any old BD of the film, my first edition was the SC 4K but I looked at the old master on the Criterion Channel before I bought that version and thought it was worth it. The problem with the Studiocanal is the encoding, which is disappointing in the highlights and otherwise solid. Skies don’t show much, if any grain and when traces still resolve in DV, it’s all macroblocking. In other scenes, the grain literally dissolves away in a shot. This is difficult to describe unless you see it in person. For example, you have a sky that makes up roughly 1/3 of a frame with the other 2/3 being the foreground with characters, scenery etc. down below. Within that sky area, you see traces of grain in roughly half of the image portion and the other one is fully devoid of it. It’s obviously not that mathematically precise but along these lines. This is particularly egregious in some early scenes with the characters walking around in the suburbs. I‘ve never seen anything just like that on a 4K restoration, but it’s common in bad, old, blown-out DVD / HD masters. I’m not saying the 4K restoration isn’t new or anything like that, it’s just the encode that has all these problems. The German Plaion UHD is a little better, but not much. When I got that one I thought I had the definitive version since they usually deliver very good encodes and subsequently blamed the highlight issues on the master. This could have absolutely been the case considering it’s Studiocanal and everything was done in France. (The French labs they commission have ruined the 4K restorations of multiple of the classics they own). Now, with Criterion showing some grain across the entire sky (screenshot on the other forum: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=29), I’m confident it’s all an encoding problem and the master itself is at least solid or even excellent.

The look on the SC is comparable to what many Kino Lorber 4Ks look like since they switched authoring houses. Stalag 17 also cuts off the grain when it comes to skies but at least it’s the entire sky and not half of it.

I assume it was primarily the restoration itself and a lack of reviews / opinions that got the SC UHD on the “solid upgrade” list at the time.

I‘ve now taken a look at the La Haine Criterion 4K and it’s indeed excellent. Their encode is the best one of the bunch by quite a huge margin. While the vast majority of the film looks stunning, there are a couple of imperfect scenes where it seems like someone at the restoration lab, Hiventy, did a trial-and-error with de-graining. This affects the scene with Vinz and Saïd meeting Hubert at the destroyed gym. This scene illustrates the difference to the SC edition quite nicely: Their encode treats the lacking grain as an opportunity to throttle the bitrate into single digits whereas the Criterion remains stable. It makes a huge difference but the grain doesn’t magically reappear.
The weird sky textures I referred to in my above post are also visible on the Criterion but not as much as on the SC due to better encoding. Still, the master’s limitations are evident in these brief, infrequent instances. I doubt David M / FiM could do much more with this.

[nicolas]

Comparison of 2012 BD (edited cut only) vs. 2024 BD vs. UHD: https://slow.pics/c/T45h4TJc
Two BD / UHD caps of the Premiere cut that didn’t fit into the comparison: https://slow.pics/c/scJjjglq
BDInfo code and graphs of all cuts and all the discs: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=44

The Seafarers 2012 BD vs. 2024 BD vs. UHD: https://slow.pics/c/AQhszlGn
Day of the Fight 2024 BD vs. UHD: https://slow.pics/c/lpojSvb5
Flying Padre 2024 BD vs. UHD: https://slow.pics/c/LeAVI6xv
BDInfo code and graph of all the short films: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...0&postcount=45

Wow some of these are laughable at best (if it wasn't so sad).

I’m torn between feeling either of these emotions as well. It’s so laughably bad that it feels like Kubrick messed it up himself but then again someone gets paid to do the encode and, if it happens, another party gets paid to do QC. And all of us buying customers are those that pay them.

I forgot to add to my post yesterday “Select "Canvas: screen width" and "Fit into canvas" in the menu on the bottom of Slowpoke Pics until I solve the windowboxing issue.” In case you want to look at the caps again, that makes it more convenient.

[ryannichols7]

I‘ve now taken a look at the La Haine Criterion 4K and it’s indeed excellent. Their encode is the best one of the bunch by quite a huge margin. While the vast majority of the film looks stunning, there are a couple of imperfect scenes where it seems like someone at the restoration lab, Hiventy, did a trial-and-error with de-graining. This affects the scene with Vinz and Saïd meeting Hubert at the destroyed gym. This scene illustrates the difference to the SC edition quite nicely: Their encode treats the lacking grain as an opportunity to throttle the bitrate into single digits whereas the Criterion remains stable. It makes a huge difference but the grain doesn’t magically reappear.
The weird sky textures I referred to in my above post are also visible on the Criterion but not as much as on the SC due to better encoding. Still, the master’s limitations are evident in these brief, infrequent instances. I doubt David M / FiM could do much more with this.

seems it really paid off going for the BFI 2 disc deluxe edition and holding out for a Criterion UHD. definitely a movie where I want to own both and get the maximum number of extras, and they seem to have done well by this

disappointed big time in both Scarlet Street and Fear and Desire - I'll be buying both anyway but it's frustrating that neither is definitive at all...was really hoping the Kino would be with the inclusion of all three of the shorter films. have we gotten any word on the Criterion Picnic at Hanging Rock and whether it's any better?

[DeprongMori]

disappointed big time in both Scarlet Street and Fear and Desire - I'll be buying both anyway but it's frustrating that neither is definitive at all...was really hoping the Kino would be with the inclusion of all three of the shorter films.

Kino’s 4K UHD release of Fear and Desire does include all three Kubrick short films in 4K restorations.

Product Extras :
DISC 1 (4KUHD):

Brand New HDR/Dolby Vision Masters for Both Cuts of Fear and Desire – 4K Restorations from the 35mm Camera Negative and Fine Grain
NEW Audio Commentary by Film Historian Eddy Von Mueller (70-Minute Premiere Cut)
NEW Audio Commentary by Film Historian/Screenwriter Gary Gerani (62-Minute Theatrical Cut)
Flying Padre (1951, Short Film by Stanley Kubrick) – 4K Restoration from the Original 35mm Print
Day of the Fight (1951, Short Film by Stanley Kubrick) – 4K Restoration from the Original 35mm Print
The Seafarers (1953, Short Film by Stanley Kubrick) – 4K Restoration from the 16mm A/B Camera Negatives and a 16mm Print
Triple-Layered UHD100 Disc
Optional English Subtitles (Features and Shorts)

[ryannichols7]

disappointed big time in both Scarlet Street and Fear and Desire - I'll be buying both anyway but it's frustrating that neither is definitive at all...was really hoping the Kino would be with the inclusion of all three of the shorter films.

Kino’s 4K UHD release of Fear and Desire does include all three Kubrick short films in 4K restorations.

moreso commenting on the quality (or lack thereof) of the transfers. awesome that KLSC included them, but not awesome according to these trusted reviews

[nicolas]

disappointed big time in both Scarlet Street and Fear and Desire - I'll be buying both anyway but it's frustrating that neither is definitive at all...was really hoping the Kino would be with the inclusion of all three of the shorter films.

Kino’s 4K UHD release of Fear and Desire does include all three Kubrick short films in 4K restorations.

moreso commenting on the quality (or lack thereof) of the transfers. awesome that KLSC included them, but not awesome according to these trusted reviews

The funny thing is that The Seafarers, the one short they included in their 2012 BD set, would have still looked the best on that BD if they’d given the film a better transfer at the time. The UHD version is just a terrible joke. The total file size of the 4K is lower than the 2012 BD version.

[ryannichols7]

The funny thing is that The Seafarers, the one short they included in their 2012 BD set, would have still looked the best on that BD if they’d given the film a better transfer at the time. The UHD version is just a terrible joke. The total file size of the 4K is lower than the 2012 BD version.

but yet it's touted by KLI how they included these in 4K. wild! so I should be safe picking up the MOC BD on resale, then? it used to fetch really high prices, but now can be found much more reasonably

[nicolas]

The funny thing is that The Seafarers, the one short they included in their 2012 BD set, would have still looked the best on that BD if they’d given the film a better transfer at the time. The UHD version is just a terrible joke. The total file size of the 4K is lower than the 2012 BD version.

but yet it's touted by KLI how they included these in 4K. wild! so I should be safe picking up the MOC BD on resale, then? it used to fetch really high prices, but now can be found much more reasonably

I’m sure you’re safe with that one. Would be interesting to compare it against my caps. Maybe I’ll find a reasonably priced used copy one day.

[Finch]

have we gotten any word on the Criterion Picnic at Hanging Rock and whether it's any better?

I don't know if it matters to you but the CC edition of Picnic only has Weir's cut, so if you want to have the theatrical (specifically the Australian theatrical cut), then the Second Sight is your only option. The theatrical cut on the Second Sight edition has been given the same divisive makeover by Weir, his DoP and the restoration team as the DC though (personally, I like the new color grading as it feels more appropriate both to the period and the Australian climate but I don't like the noticeable DNR and the removal of the grain). I also really liked the booklet (especially Daniel Bird's piece) they included with the now OPP LE.

[therewillbeblus]

Agreed with Finch on all points - I wrote something up about why the DNR works on the most egregious example (Dominic Guard's face) but otherwise it's the only bothersome aspect, and the Australian cut is far superior in my opinion. It's frustrating that we have no optimal option, but for me the Second Sight is a no-brainer

[tenia]

Actually, even the grading isn't flawless. The golden hues of the daylight exterior shots are better than the older magenta-pushed palette, but it has a digital sheen to it, feeling like a digital tentative to reproduce the color palette than just, well, doing it, and then, the interior shots are just often awful, especially the lower-lit ones.

[hearthesilence]

I picked up three problematic titles, partly because there didn't seem to be any better HD or 4K home viewing options for the foreseeable future, much less now. They're all pretty watchable, but I can't say I'm thrilled by the picture quality.

You guys weren't kidding about Liberty Valance. If you've ever ripped a 4K upload from YouTube and tried to play it on your 4K screen (or do the same with an HD YouTube video on an HD screen), you have an idea of what you'll encounter here. A lot of moments where it feels like you're seeing a thin amount of data being spread out, where details seem powdery or clumped together rather than finely rendered. So by physical media standards, pretty disappointing, but it's still a substantial improvement over the old Blu-ray which I really didn't enjoy watching.

The color revisionism in Ran is clearly present, and while I wouldn't call it good, it only feels mildly bad rather than terrible. I'm tempted to say if you could simply adjust the white point, that could eliminate much of the problem. (You see the color difference immediately when the opening text pops up on-screen - it'll have that light urine hue to it whereas the electronic English subtitles will be pure white. I posted about this not too long ago, but when I saw this projected in 35mm at MoMA, the text was clearly white.)

And finally Contempt actually looks passable for once, though you guys weren't kidding about the occasional drop in detail. I've seen this projected in 35mm and while the experience left me believing that it was never going to look that crisp or clean, the old Criterion DVD and especially the old StudioCanal Blu-ray remained extremely disappointing. We really needed something that was unafraid to just allow the picture as-is - I got the impression what did have tried to scrub the grain away which only made the inherent lack of detail look even worse, with the resulting look resembling a videotape recording. The new UHD almost does that - as mentioned that are stretches where it looks great, but it is indeed frustrating when the encoding suddenly drops to a ridiculous bitrate. I can only guess there was a very poor and misguided decision that a low bitrate would suffice in these areas, and one in particular stands out for being 80% white interior walls with Bardot off to the side on a phone, but just because there aren't many objects in the frame doesn't mean you can get away with a low bitrate. You can still discern texture regardless of the frame contents, and in this case, you can make out the shifting Tetris-like macroblocking across the texture of the wall, which kind of takes me out of an otherwise striking composition. It's still a major improvement on past releases, but it's extremely disappointing how they get most of the way there and then half-ass it on the final step.

[hearthesilence]

The NY Times has published an article just for us: "Machine-learning technologies are being used in film restoration for new home video releases. But some viewers strongly dislike the results."

[cdnchris]

Got the reissued Italian UHD for Killers of the Flower Moon and it's region free, playing without issue in my player. As stated by Nicolas before, the intertitles are in Italian (with English subtitles) but that's the only unfortunate thing. Everything else about it is solid.

[Jean-Luc Garbo]

Oh wow that's good to know they reissued it! If Criterion can't get it this is definitely my backup.

[tenia]

The NY Times has published an article just for us: "Machine-learning technologies are being used in film restoration for new home video releases. But some viewers strongly dislike the results."

It looks interesting but is behind NYT's paywall. Does anyone have a possibility to share the article to me ?

[RitrovataBlue]

I got around the paywall by opening the article in a different browser. Anyway, the headline sounds as though the article is written for videophiles but the text is anything but. The writer quotes Cameron's AI upscale team at length, but reduces our side of the argument to nebulous "online complaints" and "social media posts," none of which are even quoted. One of Cameron's stooges flat out says that people are upset because "they want it to look like it did on VHS." No actual film restorationists are quoted. No distinction is drawn between the Cameron travesties and properly restored 4K scans of original film elements. The article makes it sound as though AI upscaling is the only way to restore film. It might as well be written by a Cameron employee.

[tenia]

Yes, a kind soul helped me on this one, and I came to the same conclusion. In particular, it's simply false to say previous Park Road works weren't met with criticisms, on top of everything else you mentioned. I mean : are all these people simply forgetting there are hundreds of restorations performed every year that prove such a point wrong, and 99% of those aren't from 30-40yo blockbusters ?

[RitrovataBlue]

The article gives the impression that the author knows nothing whatsoever about film restoration. I wouldn't be surprised if this originated with a Times editor scanning Twitter trending topics. They seem to have thrown the assignment to a random staffer. The only instruction they seem to have given was "talk to James Cameron's representatives." And how kind of the Cameron reps to provide the Times with the least bizarre looking True Lies stills that have yet made their way online.

[nicolas]

Received my UHD of The Straight Story today. The German version is a 2-disc Scanavo case and the reversible art is truly beautiful. SC wisely removed the FSK 6 rating logo as well as the top 4K Ultra HD + Blu-ray banner. The French one should be a digibook with the French title. The German one has the English one together with a German subtitle (Eine wahre Geschichte) underneath and just the English title on the spine.

The disc itself is flat-out gorgeous. Had David / FiM not confirmed his involvement, we would’ve seen it straight away. The disc would’ve turned out disappointing in the hands of authoring houses and labels that just do set-and-forget encodes as the HDR grade (387 nits max) doesn’t eschew bright highlights, sunlight reflections and richly saturated colors which usually aren’t the easiest to encode. I knew from seeing the caps from the German site that this is the work of FiM and thank God for that.

I can’t really comment on the audio other than that both 5.1 and 2.0 mixes sound great. It may be placebo but the 2.0 feels as if it’s slightly different in terms of fidelity, so maybe this is the track closest to the original 5.1. Bitrate of the 2.0 (DTS-HD MA) is constantly 1.0 Mbps. I hope this helps for now.

Subtitles are German and French as reported. When you select one of the English tracks in the menu (either German or French however you choose - in my case the former), German subtitles are automatically activated. The same is probably be the case with French. You should then turn these subs off in the menu. However once you start the film, another subtitle track activates which from what I saw only translates the introductory restoration card and the film’s title at the very end of the credits into German or French. You can still turn them off in your player menu though, meaning nothing is forced upon us.

Bonus features are brief but hopefully just perfect. The David Lynch Interview runs 20 minutes but is NOT new. It was shot during filming but maybe never released, hence the claim NEW by SC. The making of runs 38 minutes. Both of these can be found on the 4K and BD as usual with FiM. The BD is region B.

I hope you all enjoy what will definitely be one of the best 4Ks of the year.

Added some random 4K caps in the spoilers below. Warning: Large file sizes.

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[/spoiler]

[Finch]

Taxi Driver 4K steelbook coming in June. This may include the fixed version that does not repeat a shot of Andy the gun dealer when he showcases his guns to Travis.