341 A Canterbury Tale

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
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arsonfilms
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#51 Post by arsonfilms » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:02 pm

djali999 wrote:Wouldn't we have to wait for Criterion to get through their current crop of masters in windowbox in order to see some change here? I bet this decision was made a long time ago and this stuff was ordered windowboxed. I don't think it's just a little button they can press in the DVD authoring process to turn it on or off. If I'm wrong here somebody please correct me.
You're absolutely right. The windowboxing is something that takes place during the telecine process so that it's mastered to HDCam in that format. If you watch the HDCam master, it'll appear pillarboxed and stretched anamorphically. Any given disc is typically finished authoring 2 or more months prior to street date, but with all of the digital restorations and design work that needs to take place, I'm guessing that these masters that are being put out were created over a year ago. This means that even if windowboxing is halted it could be a year before we see it.

It also means that any blu-ray or HDDVD versions of these titles in the future will be windowboxed as well. Sorry, folks.

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Gigi M.
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#52 Post by Gigi M. » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:23 pm

arsonfilms wrote: It also means that any blu-ray or HDDVD versions of these titles in the future will be windowboxed as well. Sorry, folks.
Are you a 100% sure about that? Can they go back and just redo the transfer? How much $ are we talking about here?

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arsonfilms
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#53 Post by arsonfilms » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:37 pm

Although I'm not 100% sure (after all, licensing either blu-ray or HDDVD technology alone runs a whopping $40,000, so I guess anything is possible), I'd find it incredibly unlikely that anyone would re-remaster a film and do all of the same work again for the sake of a new format. Telecine transfers are INCREDIBLY expensive, and the remastering that occurs after that is even more so. I'd be hard pressed to give a firm pricetag for it, but we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars, which isn't a viable figure to work with if your core audience already bought the titles in question once.

That said, a new HD transfer of something would typically indicate that a new version won't come out until the license is renewed or just before it ends to get some lsat-ditch business from it. As we're seeing with Dazed and Confused, Traffic, etc., I'd venture to guess that Criterion won't put out Canterbury Tale (see how I drove it back on topic?) on whichever format wins the war.
Then AGAIN... if I were the licensing distributor, I'd try like mad to get Criterions new transfer when I put it out, as it'd probably be cheaper to license that than to do a new one...

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#54 Post by djali999 » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:19 pm

Right. So my point is: Criterion is a niche and collector supported business, and they know it. I'd doubt they'd not heed a significant portion of their core business group complaining about a telecine issue and not take action.

They already have taken action, in a way: they've specifically stated that Seven Samurai will be windowboxed so we're not in for an unpleasant surprise come September. And regardless we probably won't even see the results of a reverse decision, if such a thing has taken place, until late in the year or early next year.

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arsonfilms
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#55 Post by arsonfilms » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:44 pm

djali999 wrote:Right. So my point is: Criterion is a niche and collector supported business, and they know it. I'd doubt they'd not heed a significant portion of their core business group complaining about a telecine issue and not take action.
I'm sure Criterion has realized they've made a mistake on the windowboxing decision, and I'm glad that they're taking steps to correct it. I'm just saying its really unlikely that we'll see another transfer inside of five-ten years or so. To make it worthwhile they'd have to be confident they'd get an additional one-two hundred thousand sales, which is no small feat, believe me, and the longer the wait the more likely it is they'll do better. I'm sure that Criterion is more sympathetic to its customer/fan base than most, but sometimes economics have to take priority. I mean, I'll be thrilled if I'm wrong, but...
Last edited by arsonfilms on Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gigi M.
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#56 Post by Gigi M. » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:32 pm

arsonfilms wrote:I'm sure Criterion has realized they've made a mistake on the windowboxing decision, and I'm glad that they're taking steps to correct it.
I'm sorry, did I missed something? How do you know Criterion is correcting this windowboxing issue? Probably the most important realease of the year for them, Seven Samurai, will be windowboxed. So, this clearly means that we would see more of the same thing again in the near future.

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arsonfilms
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#57 Post by arsonfilms » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:44 pm

Sorry, I think I misspoke. I was referencing the earlier mention that Criterion had taken a step to acknowledge the uproar by stating well in advance that Seven Samurai would be windowboxed as a means of preventing a mob of angry Kurosawa fans flooding the streets of New York looking for Becker's (or Kline's) head. By saying something about the windowboxing up front (the first time they've done so), they're acknowledging that there's been some fuss over it. Whether or not they change their methods based on said fuss remains to be seen, but at least they're listening.

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Alyosha
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#58 Post by Alyosha » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:00 am

Sigh...

It's hard to be principled about window boxing when the disc is great in every other aspect.

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FilmFanSea
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#59 Post by FilmFanSea » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:29 am

Alyosha wrote:Sigh...

It's hard to be principled about window boxing when the disc is great in every other aspect.
WOW. What a gorgeous image. I pity those who will take a pass on this release just because it's windowboxed (besides--to refute the skeptics--Criterion has proven again that they can reduce overscan AND provide a beautifully detailed image).

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#60 Post by Narshty » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:26 am

They're not reducing overscan, they're compensating for it.

I seriously doubt they're actually transferring these films windowboxed. They seem to be doing this during the encoding of the disc where they readjust the master to shrink it down within a predetermined black frame. They should only need to bypass this extra procedure to present a proper full-frame edition.

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arsonfilms
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#61 Post by arsonfilms » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:52 am

If you're more familiar with the authoring process than I am, I'll happily concede, but in conversations with one of my authoring companies (who counts Janus - but not explicitly Criterion - as a client), I've never been left with the impression that the presentation of a film could ever be different from how it was encoded, which is entirely dependant on the master. Perhaps a non-windowboxed master could be created by blowing up the existing windowboxed image to full-frame HDCam, but that really wouldn't solve the resolution concern.

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#62 Post by thomega » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:15 pm

arsonfilms wrote:I've never been left with the impression that the presentation of a film could ever be different from how it was encoded, which is entirely dependant on the master. Perhaps a non-windowboxed master could be created by blowing up the existing windowboxed image to full-frame HDCam, but that really wouldn't solve the resolution concern.
That's true if the master is single definition PAL or NTSC. In case of a HD master, it still has to be downconverted for authoring a SD DVD. Windowboxing can be applied or removed in this step without affecting resolution. [At least in mathematical principle. Since I'm not in the business, I don't know if the available tools support this.]

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arsonfilms
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#63 Post by arsonfilms » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:34 pm

thomega wrote:That's true if the master is single definition PAL or NTSC. In case of a HD master, it still has to be downconverted for authoring a SD DVD. Windowboxing can be applied or removed in this step without affecting resolution. [At least in mathematical principle. Since I'm not in the business, I don't know if the available tools support this.]
Actually, you could be right. If the windowboxing is being done during the downconvert, the 15% loss of resolution would only affect the SD master. Logically, that would make the most sense - I wasn't buying the idea of this taking place during the encoding process, and this would allow the telecined HD master to retain it's integrity for archival and non-SD purposes. I'm rarely involved in the production process as early on as the HD downconvert, so that possibility didn't even occur to me. I'll ask the guys at my posthouse sometime in the next few days if they've ever done anything like that during a downconvert, or if they know anyone who has.

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Matango
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#64 Post by Matango » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:00 pm

Regarding Ian Christie's brief mention of the sexual connotations of the glue in the women's hair...did anyone else pick up on the exploding milk bottle and the name 'Cummings' while the land girl was discussing the issue with Sheila Sim? Or is it just me?

Regarding overscan, I watched the film zoomed out slightly on my player as a fair bit was overscanned on the TV...didn't need to do this with Virgin Spring, for example...so I doubt it's windowboxed.

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Gigi M.
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#65 Post by Gigi M. » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:01 pm

DVDTalk review

Savant

Narshty
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#66 Post by Narshty » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:58 am

DVD File's review

Not exactly news, but Christ that site's gone downhill. The brushing-off of Humphrey Jennings' Listen to Britain - easily the artistic equal of the main feature itself - is pathetically lazy.

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Matt
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#67 Post by Matt » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:11 am

Narshty wrote:DVD File's review

Not exactly news, but Christ that site's gone downhill. The brushing-off of Humphrey Jennings' Listen to Britain - easily the artistic equal of the main feature itself - is pathetically lazy.
Oh, that's my old favorite, Mike Restaino! Truth be told, I had forgotten that site even existed.

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jorencain
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#68 Post by jorencain » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:34 am

I just watched this and loved it. Every Powell & Pressburger film I've seen is such a joy to watch.

Anyway, in her interview, Sheila Sim says that the "glueman" was originally supposed to cut girls dresses with a knife, but that idea was thrown out for being overtly sexual in nature. I can't be the only one who conjured up obscene thoughts at the image of young girls with sticky hair.....am I?

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#69 Post by ellipsis7 » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:07 am

Ian Christie refers to this in his commentary too...

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Ives
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#70 Post by Ives » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:23 am

did anyone else pick up on the exploding milk bottle and the name 'Cummings' while the land girl was discussing the issue with Sheila Sim? Or is it just me?
I noticed this too, and I had the same thought without having read your post. Not likely an accident, considering the general air of repressed sexuality in the film.

I loved this film and need to see it again. IKWIG yielded many rewards with repeated viewing, and I suspect this one will as well. My wife, however, couldn't get past the annoying (Oregonian?) drawl of Sgt. Johnson.

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#71 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:37 pm

Short featurette on the film on BBC and a Location site walk on 27th.August for anyone in the area.

Narshty
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#72 Post by Narshty » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:23 pm

Thanks for that, Nabob.

There's a slightly sneery tone to that piece (it starts 13 1/2 minutes in, for anyone interested in listening), not being particularly celebratory of the film itself, but more "Ha ha, the things these film geeks do in their spare time!" Mind you, it is Front Row.

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alandau
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#73 Post by alandau » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:33 am

The film poses some questions:

Is there a fascist element that permeates the film

- i.e agrarian values versus a commercial, materialistic, soul corrupting city life (remember the Nazi party propangandized the organic and pure peasant-farmer values)

- ecological values supersiding human values and inspirations

- a reactionary medievalism.. is Canterbury like Nuremberg (a spiritual epicentre of fascist England), especially with those "neo-Romantic" panning shots of Old World buildings and a military procession through the city (like the Stormtroopers marching thru Nuremberg), abrogating anything to do with modernity

- an omnipotent leader, a Fuhrer, a quasi-Messiah (Eric Portman role) whose is beyond Good and Evil

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Gordon
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#74 Post by Gordon » Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:27 pm

Narshty wrote:There's a slightly sneery tone to that piece not being particularly celebratory of the film itself, but more "Ha ha, the things these film geeks do in their spare time!" Mind you, it is Front Row.

Any social behaviour in Britain that does not involve embarrassing alcohol-fueled stupidity or stultification should be welcomed in today's climate.

I have been trying to articulate my feelings of A Canterbury Tale concisely since I experienced it last sunday afternoon. I find it difficult to do this with Powell & Pressburger's films. With A Canterbury Tale, the tone of the film fluctuates during the first two thirds of the film, with mystery, comedy and light drama elements within the strange narrative. However, within this meandering story, there is always a sense of purpose somehow and of fellowship among the main protagonists and even the folk of 'Chillingbourne'. In his commentary, Christie perceptively makes note of the early ideas of what is now known as the "Green Movement", being presented by the landmark books Soil and Sense by Michael Graham and the legendary ecologist, Sir Frank Fraser Darling's wonderful Island Years, an account of his times living on the various Hebridean islands. Later, when Alison meets Colpeper on the hill, she reflects that, "There are a lot of funny things in the world," to which she then gives the example, "Why should people who love the country, have to live in the city." Today, more people than ever could relate to that - almost everyone in my family would love to live in the country, so why don't we? How were masses of people driven to city living? What does it have to offer? On close study, nothing much, to be quite honest. Commercial farming, or "Agri-business", as it is sometimes called, has ruined traditional farming and its benefits to all. In Britain, we now import much of what we used to grow ourselves! Madness. Powell felt strongly about these issues and Pressburger and he were, as Christie also points out, that in the 1940s, they both felt that they were "crusading against Materialism" and their feelings and beliefs were woven into the fabric of their films. They spell them out in A Canterbury Tale, though, but with considerable eloquence. Colpepper's antics in trying to gain attendance to his lectures anticipates the mischievous and often unethical stunts of the various conservation groups of the last thirty years, though he certainly was at his wits end; how desperate the state of play has become since then.

However, though this part of the film is fascinating, it doesn't seem to add up to much. That is, until we reach Canterbury. Once we reach the hallowed city, we experience a emotional elevation. Peter plays Bach on the famous organ in the Cathedral and from there on, fortune shines on the three pilgrims: Bob's doubts for his girl's feelings for him are dissolved and, more miraculously, Alison's fiancee is found to be alive! Begone moths! It's an incredible, wonderful moment. Off to mainland Europe for the three with renewed spirit, fighting an enemy that had new ideas of their own for how man should live in the 20th Century. They were defeated, of course, but not those bad ideas, which have led us to a future of ever-increasing madness and destruction.

I'm off to get some glue...

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Gordon
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#75 Post by Gordon » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:14 pm

alandau wrote:Is there a fascist element that permeates the film

I do not feel that men such as Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger would include fascist ideas or allusions in their films. They often hint at what may be called the 'spiritual' aspects, or lack thereof, in modern living in their films, but the charge of "fascism", even in their unavoidably propagandized films is a bit preposterous, to be quite honest.
alandau wrote:- i.e agrarian values versus a commercial, materialistic, soul corrupting city life (remember the Nazi party propangandized the organic and pure peasant-farmer values)

How is this favouring of values fascistic - because the Nazis had similar ideas? Does the fact that those evil, evil Nazis held similar ideals negate their validity? I think not. Soil and Sense by Michael Graham and the works of Sir Frank Fraser Darling are far more sophisticated and intelligent than the romanticized notions of the Nazi's "pure peasant-farmer values".
alandau wrote:- ecological values supersiding human values and inspirations

Well, shouldn't they? Ecological values should be the bedrock of rational living in any part of the world. This was the unconscious concern of man before the Industrial Revolution. The importance of manual farming in pre-Technological living the world over is lost on most historians, certainly the general public today. "Food comes from the Supermarket," is the primary belief! This 'convenience' is what makes the 'ease' of fulfilling those "inspirations". Ecological values are - or certainly should be, an fully integrated part of human values.
alandau wrote:- a reactionary medievalism.. is Canterbury like Nuremberg (a spiritual epicentre of fascist England), especially with those "neo-Romantic" panning shots of Old World buildings and a military procession through the city (like the Stormtroopers marching thru Nuremberg), abrogating anything to do with modernity

Is Canterbury like Nuremberg - a spiritual epicentre of fascist England? What? Are you being serious here? Colpepper's ideologies are not those of a crazed Luddite, but of a rational, enlightened and impassioned soul, who has had to resort to silly methods to gain attention, but he far from the Destroyer of Machines. Or maybe he is - but so what; those would not be the views of Powell and Pressburger, bon vivant filmmakers, among other things!
alandau wrote:- an omnipotent leader, a Fuhrer, a quasi-Messiah (Eric Portman role) whose is beyond Good and Evil

Please don't bring Nietzschean terminology into discussions of Fascism or Nazis; it is always unwelcome and can make a person seem ignorant in their understanding of what Nietzsche stood for. It also makes Walter Kaufmann and R. J. Hollingdale's work seem invalid. Colpepper is simply a man in touch with what were then New Ideas in ecology and sociology, whose warning was not being heeded - and such warnings would not be until the 1970s - and who misguidedly took surreal action in pouring glue over girls' heads so as to scare them into staying indoors and not fooling around with soldiers (many of whom had girls or even wives back home) so that his lectures would be attended by those soldiers. Far from a "Führer" - and even if he did see himself as some sort of "leader", so what? He was hardly leading them to global war and genocide.

I apologise for tone of these replies, but strong claims must be refuted with strong language! :D

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