331 Late Spring

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
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Murasaki53
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#151 Post by Murasaki53 » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:12 am

You can view the scene (with the Noh play subtitled) here.

I doubt that this is the Criterion, though. I am half-awake and slightly hungover at the moment but it seemed to be comparing life in this world with Amida Buddha's Western Paradise. In other words, the scene acknowledges the beauty and ephemerality of existence whilst envisaging a future transformation (rebirth) to a happier state. The Western Paradise is a kind of Buddhist heaven (one of many) where enlightenment is assured for people who are reborn there. Googling for a bit of information on Pure Land Buddhism (Jodo-shu/Jodo-shinshu) should help.

I don't know which Noh play it is. Can anyone help?

Please note that I haven't actually seen this Ozu movie myself yet but you can bet that I will very soon. It's a great scene.

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the dancing kid
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#152 Post by the dancing kid » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:19 am

I believe the play is 'Morikawa'.

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Michael Kerpan
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#153 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:37 am

I don't know which Noh play it is. Can anyone help?
Kakitsubata, according to these essays:

Emily and Noriko: Two Cases of Representation of Historical Change

The Scene at the Kyoto Inn: Teaching Ozu Yasujiro's Late Spring (pdf)

La fin du printemps (pdf - in French)

A little bit more about the play.

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Mr Buttle
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#154 Post by Mr Buttle » Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:03 pm

Wow, this is great stuff, guys, lots to process. I'm very grateful.

Murasaki53
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#155 Post by Murasaki53 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:26 am

I'm about to order 'Late Spring'. Could someone just confirm that the Criterion edition translates the lines from the Noh Drama? I can't believe it doesn't but just in case....

I'd also be interested in hearing about any other Japanese movies that feature glimpses of Noh performances (the only other one I can think of right now is a brief scene in Mizoguchi's '47 Ronin'). This is for a colleague of mine who teaches an International Baccalaureate course in Drama. Noh and Kabuki are on the syllabus but he doesn't have any DVD resources for the former.

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

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Mr Buttle
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#156 Post by Mr Buttle » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:16 am

There's an extended sequence of Noh in the middle of Kurosawa's Kagemusha. Unfortunately, the Criterion edition doesn't subtitle it.

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Michael Kerpan
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#157 Post by Michael Kerpan » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:13 am

Naruse's "Song Lantern" is all about Noh performance (and performance ethics) -- and is one of his most beautiful films (shot by Asakazu Nakai, it prefigures some techniques that will later turn up in Kurosawa's films). No DVD, alas. The Japan Foundation has a subbed print, however.

Murasaki53
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#158 Post by Murasaki53 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:55 am

Just missed 'Song Lantern' at the London NFT. What a pity - it looks intriguing.

Thanks for the recommendations so far, though. I have Kagemusha on DVD but I'd forgotten about the Noh scene.

I'd still be interested in knowing whether the Criterion of Late Spring subtitles the Noh performance as I don't know which version of the film that clip I referred to earlier is taken from. Likewise, the Tartan edition. As I'm in the UK I have the choice of purchasing either, though the Tartan 'Noriko Trilogy' seems to have been poorly received and the screenshots on DVD Beaver look too dark to me.

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#159 Post by Jimaku » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:14 am

I think nobody is answering your question because it was already answered just a few posts earlier in this thread. Yes, the Criterion edition provides subtitles for the Noh scene.

Murasaki53
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#160 Post by Murasaki53 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:43 pm

Thanks for pointing that out. To compound matters, I only watched Kagemusha about 10 days ago and then promptly forgot about the Noh scene in that as well.

I think I'd better go and have a lie down.

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#161 Post by Macintosh » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:25 pm

Interesting to note that the character of Noriko seems to grow older and more mature throughout the "Noriko" trilogy". In this, she is scared of commitment. In Early Summer, she wants to get married, just on her own terms, in Tokyo Story she would be a few years older and already widowed. She is mature enough to know that she must accompany her in-laws and knows the value of life already.

Also, I just wanted to note that first seeing Noriko in her very elaborate wedding dress was one of the most emotionally devastating scenes I've ever seen. Much more powerful than any scare tactic in some horror film.

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Steven H
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#162 Post by Steven H » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:33 pm

Macintosh wrote:Also, i just wanted to note that first seeing Noriko in her very elaborate wedding dress was one of the most emotionally devastating scenes I've ever seen. Much more powerful than any scare tactic in some horror film.
A lot of people don't know this, but Noriko actually stole that dress.

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#163 Post by Macintosh » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:44 pm

Steven H wrote:A lot of people don't know this, but Noriko actually stole that dress.
I'm sorry, but I can't tell if you're being facetious or not.

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#164 Post by James » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:16 pm

I just watched this as my first Ozu (don't know what I'll check out next) and really liked it, but am curious whether or not
SpoilerShow
Shukichi dies at the end. It would appear that would put further emphasis on Ozu's prevalent theme of general change.

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#165 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:03 pm

Nothing in the film suggests the ending suggested in your spoiler. It is sufficient that the father is emotionally wasted by the change in circumstances (and uncertain as to whether or not he took the right course of action).

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#166 Post by James » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:22 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:Nothing in the film suggests the ending suggested in your spoiler. It is sufficient that the father is emotionally wasted by the change in circumstances (and uncertain as to whether or not he took the right course of action).
It was just in how his head collapsed so suddenly as he was sitting in the chair in the second to last shot. Glad this isn't the situation though; Ozu really makes us care about these characters. If this speculation were true, I don't think I'd like the movie as much. It would be far more contrived, and putting to much emphasis on a single theme. Thanks for clearing it up.

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#167 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:29 pm

The father is not only upset, he is also rather drunk. He manages to sustain concentration long enough to accomplish a distracting task (peeling), but (when finished), his feelings take command.

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#168 Post by James » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:38 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:The father is not only upset, he is also rather drunk. He manages to sustain concentration long enough to accomplish a distracting task (peeling), but (when finished), his feelings take command.
That makes good sense. Could, then, the lack of cheeriness have something to do with the lack of sake in the second half? I mean, aside from the whole marriage thing, it seemed to me that even when Noriko insulted that man, she said it with a straight face. With a smile! He didn't think anything of it because of the sake. At first, I was a bit offput by how the characters expressed their emotions, particularly Noriko, who seemed like she'd smile even if she were to get hit by a car, but as soon as actual internal conflict arose, the tone changed, and I really liked that. Specifically, how Ozu used the Noh play as a sort of spiritual transition, as among other thing, we are introduced to who will very likely be the father's next wife.

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Michael Kerpan
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#169 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:30 pm

Plenty of sake in the second half. Think of the next to the last scene -- with the Father and Noriko's friend at the bar.

The Father isn't (in fact) getting married to the lady seen at the Noh play.

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#170 Post by James » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:34 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:Plenty of sake in the second half. Think of the next to the last scene -- with the Father and Noriko's friend at the bar.

The Father isn't (in fact) getting married to the lady seen at the Noh play.
Okay, that is alright.

Is he getting married to anyone? Or just not her?

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Matango
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#171 Post by Matango » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:36 pm

James, maybe you should watch one more time. Perhaps with the commentary? Just a thought.

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Michael Kerpan
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#172 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:36 pm

The Father won't be marrying anyone -- not in the foreseeable future depicted in the film.

I concur that it might be wise to re-watch this extremely re-watchable film. It really requires that one pay very close attention to very tiny cues.

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#173 Post by James » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:41 pm

Matango wrote:James, maybe you should watch one more time. Perhaps with the commentary? Just a thought.
I was thinking of doing that, but the reviewer at DVDTimes says the commentary is overly academic for such a simplistic movie.

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#174 Post by Matango » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:45 pm

Ouch! Late Spring is anything but simplistic. And the commentary is aimed more at Ozu first-timers than established fans. At least that's what I thought when I listened to it.

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#175 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:46 pm

james wrote:I was thinking of doing that, but the reviewer at DVDTimes says the commentary is overly academic for such a simplistic movie.
Does the reviewer really call Late Spring "a simplistic movie"? If so, you'd better check some alternate reviews. It is a remarkably rich and complex film (that gets moreso with revisitation). Commentaries always need to be taken with a grain of salt, but may be helpful -- but they are no substitute for careful watching on one's own.

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