576 Secret Sunshine

[The Fanciful Norwegian]

The Shin-ae equivalent in the novel (actually a short story, which Criterion really should've included with the package) is more overtly weak, and not only in the personality sense either (she has a congenital leg defect). In truth Lee really just took the idea of

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the son's murder and mother's attempt to forgive the killer,

then struck out on his own:

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The husband isn't dead in the original story, there's no relocation, no hair salon, none of the piano business, and no equivalent to the Song Kang-ho character and virtually all of the film's supporting cast, including the killer's daughter.

As an aside, the author of the story (Lee Cheong-joon) also wrote the source novels for Im Kwon-taek's Seopyeonje and Beyond the Years, plus Kim Ki-young's typically weird Ieo Island (apparently another loose adaptation).

[Michael Kerpan]

Fanciful Norwegian -- thanks for the information. I don't have the Criterion release -- as I am pretty content with the Korean DVD -- so I haven't seen any of the Criterion sets extras. ;~}

[jojo]

Watched this a few days ago and it is indeed a downer, albeit a beautifully made one.

There are two ways of looking at the Shin-ae's behaviour--

Taken at face value, I actually consider her to be mentally unstable, not just easily rattled or normal self centredness. Mental instability is a complex and broad term encompassing a wide variety of disorders, but many of them revolve around how people process external events in a much different way than a typical person would. Thus, I don't think we can necessarily judge her in terms of "typical" human behaviour, although even people with certain instabilities have an internal logic that can be somewhat grasped by normal means if we are able to classify the general core idea which the behaviour revolves around. In this case, it's pride. Much of what she does and doesn't do, is based on retaining the sense of personal pride she feels is valuable to her, as the director insinuated in the rather uncharacteristically slim amount of Criterion extras.

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This would help explain her rather complex attitude towards the killer's daughter, and why she can't EVER show her any sort of kindness or forgiveness, because she perceives that as being too weak an act for her uncompromising worldview. At the same time, you sense that there's a part of her that wants to relieve herself of that baggage. But she can't outright forgive or help someone with no strings attached, she always has to feel like she's in control. Hence, she's able to try to forgive the killer because she's doing it from a position of superiority, but when that superiority is stripped away from her, she's incredibly pissed and rattled. Again, it comes back to her pride.

It's funny how she's always seen retching and gagging and hyperventilating and generally constantly making a scene in public, yet at the same time, much of the character's suffering seems to result from her internalizing every little thing that bothers her. Without spoiling too much, the tragedy that happens a quarter into the film seems to have merely triggered the latent instability in her, rather than completely changing her. Late in the film, when the mechanic and the brother go to the hospital, the brother doesn't even seem surprised by this turn of events.

On the other hand, if you take the film as melodrama, then we are able to consider her behaviour as being more subjective than "realistic". I think it's a bit of both, because the film does seem to acknowledge that she's really not quite all right up there. That fact doesn't make the themes of wrestling with the pros and cons of religion and God any less potent, though. Indeed, it's exactly in times of great mental duress when people are most open to exploring and grappling with spirituality.

As for the "doofus" mechanic...

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Seeing as how he's never going to go away, who's to say he doesn't stand a chance? Of course, she'll never, ever give in and accept any real help or compassion from him because, again, her pride won't let her. He's such a persistent insect that she may have to move out of country to get rid of him. Even then it probably won't work. What we have here is an unstoppable force (him) against an immovable one (her). I can just picture them doing this never-ending dance until the day they die. It's to the film's credit that they manage to make someone who's basically kind of a stalker the most loveable character in the story!

[Zot!]

Saw this belatedly, and thought it was terrific. Looking very much forward to Poetry.

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I watched the interview with the director and he indicated that he felt the movie was about Shin-ae's hopeless attempt at asserting her importance in the universe while the mechanic was the opposite (comfortable, almost oblivious to his insignificance). I thought this was really kind of profound as the whole battle with God plot definitely does not play as a straight critique of organized religion. The examination of this selfish profundity that Shin-ae insists on seems like a very unique theme. A bit similar to the second half of Melancholia in some respects.

[Michael Kerpan]

With Secret Sunshine, then Poetry, I finally came to the point where I had no choice but to consider LEE Chang-dong as Korea's best director. As much as I like some of his (mostly younger) colleagues, Lee's (infrequent) films seem the richest.

[zedz]

Funny how these things work out: that same one-two punch convinced me that Lee would only ever be a good, not great director.

[Michael Kerpan]

Funny how these things work out: that same one-two punch convinced me that Lee would only ever be a good, not great director.

Oh well, sad to hear you say this. ;~{

[puxzkkx]

Funny how these things work out: that same one-two punch convinced me that Lee would only ever be a good, not great director.

Have you seen Peppermint Candy? It isn't often that you feel a film explains an entire country/culture/history. It's one of the best films I've ever seen.

I enjoy his films since then, mostly for what they do with a pretty simple generic experiment - make a melodrama without the melodrama. IMO Oasis, Secret Sunshine and Poetry are clever deconstructions of the typical East Asian 'women's picture'.

[zedz]

Yeah, with the earlier films I found Lee a bit tendentious and a bit slack in terms of form, but with a lot of potential. The two more recent films actually presented 'best possible' scenarios for me, with meaty themes that he didn't shy away from and really great performances, but the finished films still didn't push through to greatness for me. There seems to be a slight over-eggedness to the contentious thematic material (which might be the same thing you see as 'clever deconstruction' of genre), and Lee doesn't bring enough stylistic heft or idiosyncracy to overcome that. So the films end up as superior examples of the kind of cinema a lot of other Korean and Asian directors are making rather than powerful individual statements.

[Michael Kerpan]

With all due respect, zedz, I can't think of any films that "a lot of other Korean and Asian directors are doing" that are much like Secret Sunchine and Poetry. You must be watching all sorts of Asia films I am unaware of. ;~}

[Zot!]

Yeah, with the earlier films I found Lee a bit tendentious and a bit slack in terms of form, but with a lot of potential. The two more recent films actually presented 'best possible' scenarios for me, with meaty themes that he didn't shy away from and really great performances, but the finished films still didn't push through to greatness for me. There seems to be a slight over-eggedness to the contentious thematic material (which might be the same thing you see as 'clever deconstruction' of genre), and Lee doesn't bring enough stylistic heft or idiosyncracy to overcome that. So the films end up as superior examples of the kind of cinema a lot of other Korean and Asian directors are making rather than powerful individual statements.

Not sure what you mean by "over-eggedness" but I really appreciated the minimal style and lack of idiosyncracy in Secret Sunshine, as that is typically what seems overdone in most Korean exports (like "Mother"). I felt it was self-assured enough to dispense with the window dressing.

[Michael Kerpan]

Not sure what you mean by "over-eggedness" but I really appreciated the minimal style and lack of idiosyncracy in Secret Sunshine, as that is typically what seems overdone in most Korean exports (like "Mother"). I felt it was self-assured enough to dispense with the window dressing.

That's exactly how I see these films. "Over-egged" means "overdone, exaggerated" -- and that is precisely the opposite of what I see in Lee's films. They are very understated -- and the "meanings" of each are left remarkably open.

[zedz]

For example, in Poetry, the way that the protagonist's life is not just complicated by workplace and domestic issues, but by zeitgeisty Hot Topics (School Bullying! Viagra-assisted Geriatric Molestation! Onset of Alzheimer's!) Piling all of those on top of one another does seem to me over-egged, and detracts from the plight of the character, since her dilemmas seem like they were defined by an online poll.

[Michael Kerpan]

All the elements you mention, zedz, are pretty essential to the film. I don't get the slightest sense of topical trendiness. These are simply part of the fabric of the film and play a supporting role to the deeper dilemma the protagonist faces.

[warren oates]

For example, in Poetry, the way that the protagonist's life is not just complicated by workplace and domestic issues, but by zeitgeisty Hot Topics (School Bullying! Viagra-assisted Geriatric Molestation! Onset of Alzheimer's!) Piling all of those on top of one another does seem to me over-egged, and detracts from the plight of the character, since her dilemmas seem like they were defined by an online poll.

I'm a huge fan of Oasis and Secret Sunshine largely because they embrace what might in other hands be a smattering over the top themes and spin them into compelling and unpredictable narratives full of human emotion that rings true. Poetry, not so much. I can agree with Zedz about that film, but perhaps for different reasons. For me Poetry fails because it's never clear what the grandma protag really wants/needs or why, for instance, poetry -- at least as the film conceives of it -- could help her with it. I'm definitely down with the "Viagra-assisted Gertiatric Molestation," though, as it's the one choice in the film that surprised me somewhat.

[puxzkkx]

To be fair, Oasis rubbed me the wrong way. It seemed inherently 'over-egged' and manipulative in a way separate from the self-reflexive Mizoguchi-ism of the later two works (not that these films don't have moments that cross the line between over-the-top-with-a-point and just plain over-the-top - the long closeup on Mija's naked patient in the bath or Shin-ae's hijinks with the CD at the revival).

And I'd disagree that he is 'without stylistic idiosyncrasy' - the formal treatment in Peppermint Candy, to me at least, bucks a structure that is inherently static and gives it a sense of danger, tension and anticipation even at its closing, and Mija's 'apotheosis' at the end of Poetry is reflected beautifully when the entire editing scheme of the film changes in accordance with poetic metre. He might not be 'visual' but I think he organises his films very well.

RE: Warren, I think the ending to Poetry answers that question re: Mija's motives/wants by resolving the confusion she feels throughout the film. The objective in the poetry class provides a nagging sideline to the other issues Mija has to deal with, taunting her with her inability to reconcile the situation with her son/patient/illness/poverty, until by taking a moral stand things click into place and she finds 'poetry' in the sadness of her own decision, her own bleak surroundings and her own decay of faculties... and what better way to show this process of realisation than to spare Mija any more time in such a stifling environment? So with that, she disappears.

[zedz]

All the elements you mention, zedz, are pretty essential to the film. I don't get the slightest sense of topical trendiness. These are simply part of the fabric of the film and play a supporting role to the deeper dilemma the protagonist faces.

Really? You can't think of any possible complication with her employment that doesn't involve ViagraTM?

[warren oates]

RE: Warren, I think the ending to Poetry answers that question re: Mija's motives/wants by resolving the confusion she feels throughout the film. The objective in the poetry class provides a nagging sideline to the other issues Mija has to deal with, taunting her with her inability to reconcile the situation with her son/patient/illness/poverty, until by taking a moral stand things click into place and she finds 'poetry' in the sadness of her own decision, her own bleak surroundings and her own decay of faculties... and what better way to show this process of realisation than to spare Mija any more time in such a stifling environment? So with that, she disappears.

For a novelist and a poet, and one who includes in his own film a pretty solid definition of poetry, the ending really stinks it up for me in a way that seems close to Zedz's problem with most of his films. If Mija's problem really is simply confusion or a lack of meaning and her practice of poetry is meant to clear that up, the film fails to dramatize this with any precision or interest for me. Not to mention that her climactic poem is terrible. Which is a problem in any kind of film like this. The best solution when you build up to a fictional literary work if you don't have a true masterpiece handy is never to read it in the first place, denying us the work and preserving the mystery as for example Hal Hartley does in Henry Fool.

Btw, since when wasn't Over The Top the optimum register of New Korean Cinema. When I first started watching films like Oasis and Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, a large part of what excited me about them was their willingness to go places narratively and thematically that seemed several steps beyond what other filmmakers in other countries would dare.

[puxzkkx]

Something to take into account - the poetry class is devoted to a certain kind of traditional Korean poetry that has to follow a very rigid structure. Which helps explain why the class is given such a long time to write a poem.

I think the ending's beautiful, one of the best I've ever seen - mainly because of the way it craftily allows the film to shift and become a sensory poem itself.

ETA: I also think it is a bit silly to assume that capping Mija's experience with a poetic 'masterpiece' was ever, or should have ever been, the intention - the fact that she can discover her own 'poetry', and express/explain her own experience, is the hook here.

[warren oates]

Well, her poem almost has to be a masterpiece of first-timer grandma amateur poetry, and even by those standards I don't think it comes remotely close. At least we both agree that the film seems to want to be building up to this final summing up moment. We just have vastly different ideas of how successful this is.

One example of something the film could have used a lot more of is the beautiful visual when Mija is in the countryside by a river and it starts to rain. We see this in close-up as her notebook dots with raindrops. I needed about 20-30 more images of this quality in the film as a whole, or at least a dozen in the end. But there were none.

Interesting footnote about the exact form they are practicing, but knowing that doesn't change much for me. The film itself seems to argue for a much broader and more timeless and cross cultural understanding of poetry. Also, in line with Zedz's problems with this director, I could cite the well nigh unbelievable and barfingly tendentious choice to have Mija be the only class member who finishes and submits a poem. This is after the film spends plenty of time establishing the teacher/poet as very much respected by the class -- to the point where they hang out with him after hours -- but not at all the kind of taskmaster whose judgment they need fear. I mean, really? Not a single other character in that imaginary world would have finished a poem? Not even out of respect for the teacher?

[warren oates]

All the elements you mention, zedz, are pretty essential to the film. I don't get the slightest sense of topical trendiness. These are simply part of the fabric of the film and play a supporting role to the deeper dilemma the protagonist faces.

Really? You can't think of any possible complication with her employment that doesn't involve ViagraTM?

For me, this choice isn't the problem per se, so much as the fact that almost nothing interesting comes of it. In the end, it's about setting up a plot device that allows Mija to consider her hush money payoff via some lowkey bribery. It's not even close to being in the same league as the beginning of Oasis

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where an achingly romantic and authentic love story starts off with the rape of a handicapped girl by an ex-con.

[Michael Kerpan]

't think of any possible complication with her employment that doesn't involve ViagraTM?

The protagonist makes _use_ of this --

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the feeble old lech has no ability to do anything without her cooperation -- she uses his lechery to get the money she needs. Hardly your standard molestation case.

. She NEEDS money, she GETS money.

As to the quality of the final poem -- the heroine is NOT presented as an accomplished poet -- but as someone with no expertise whatsoever who wants to write a poem (that has meaning for herself).

Warren -- you seem to be make a huge number of cultural assumptions....

[warren oates]

't think of any possible complication with her employment that doesn't involve ViagraTM?

The protagonist makes _use_ of this --

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the feeble old lech has no ability to do anything without her cooperation -- she uses his lechery to get the money she needs. Hardly your standard molestation case.

. She NEEDS money, she GETS money.

As to the quality of the final poem -- the heroine is NOT presented as an accomplished poet -- but as someone with no expertise whatsoever who wants to write a poem (that has meaning for herself).

Warren -- you seem to be make a huge number of cultural assumptions....

But the geezer j/o, while by itself one of the more interesting moments in the film, is merely a plot device. It turns out to be about less than it seems like it might be. Or than I'd argue, similarly charged dramatic moments are used in Lee Chang Dong's better films. This is the distinction I'm trying to make with Zedz: bad OTT vs. sublime pull-a-rabbit-out-of-hat, can't believe he just did that, oh no he didn't OTT.

What cultural assumptions am I making? That a classroom of willing students choosing to be there might have some respect for a teacher they obviously like and finish their single assignment?

Amateur poets write good poems all the time. What I'm asking from a film that foregrounds poetry as a way of seeing more clearly is just that: a relative masterpiece of amateur first-time grandma poetry that clarifies and illuminates all we've seen before. Didn't get that at all.

[zedz]

Also, in line with Zedz's problems with this director, I could cite the well nigh unbelievable and barfingly tendentious choice to have Mija be the only class member who finishes and submits a poem. This is after the film spends plenty of time establishing the teacher/poet as very much respected by the class -- to the point where they hang out with him after hours -- but not at all the kind of taskmaster whose judgment they need fear. I mean, really? Not a single other character in that imaginary world would have finished a poem? Not even out of respect for the teacher?

I'd forgotten about this. It seemed like another instance of the director pushing everything artificially into place in order to contrive his message, rather than trusting the themes and performances to deliver us to the same place in a more organic way.

And to reiterate, none of this ruined the film for me or anything, it's just the kind of internal limitation that detracts from a film being in contention for masterpiece status.

For the record, I liked that fact that the protagonist's breakthrough poem was sort of crappy. It's the fact of writing it that's significant rather than its quality. (And, if that's the key point, then loading the dice by making it the only poem submitted gilds the lily and weakens the film).

[warren oates]

For the record, I liked that fact that the protagonist's breakthrough poem was sort of crappy. It's the fact of writing it that's significant rather than its quality. (And, if that's the key point, then loading the dice by making it the only poem submitted gilds the lily and weakens the film).

Well, I still feel like the intended relative crappiness of Mija's poem is debatable. Especially because there's ample evidence that the director can at least write bad-bad poetry (like most of what gets read at the coffeehouse poetry slams within the film). So if you consider Mija's final work to be aspirationally good-good (relative to her experience) or say at least functionally good-bad (meaning that it's not exactly Walt Whitman or Basho but it still illuminates something of her experience and allows both her and her audience to see these things in a new way), then the writer-director seems to have failed.

Though, of course, parsing what one means by "good" or "bad" poetry is a bit like nailing down the qualities of "intelligence" in the Kevin Smith thread. Not to mention that far more passionate debates have raged for decades about the relative intended crappiness of the title poem in a work like PALE FIRE.